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  1. #61
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    So the voters expressed their rejection of Obamacare by electing a Republican to MA senate, but not by electing representatives and senators in large enough numbers to actually do anything about it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #62
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    People in US arent able to do the whole social heath care thing properly because the country is ruled by corporations that want big money. I mean US already spends shit loads money on health care, but because they dont run the thing properly, not many people get any benefits for the tax money.
    Yeah, I was surprised to find out that the US spends more on health than the UK for instance with a fully publically provided health service.

  3. #63
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    I did a quick google on Obamacare, and my god, what a pile of conflicting (and highly biased) information. No way I could get the straight goods without many hours of digging (which, since I'm Canadian, I can't be bothered to do). My impression is the anti-Obamacare side is either employing FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) or just plain anti-socialist in general (in which case they should be anti-medicare too). Overall Obamacare seems to be a slight improvement over medicare, but I can't really tell.*
    Pretty much.

    The problem is not ObamaCare, the problem is partisan politics. Capitalism and socialism are right for some things, wrong for some things. Capitalism is bad for the healthcare system, but good in the free market. The healthy form of capitalism is, believe it or not, the likes of Wal-mart... sure, mom n pop get crushed, but do you know how many poor people shop at Wal-mart? It's a capitalist outcome with "socialist" benefits for many people. The strength of capitalism is not always in it's competitiveness but in it's ability to enact healthy growth and positive outcomes for the whole.

    ObamaCare isn't perfect, but it wouldn't matter anyways... any first step towards government healthcare is going to be messy. I must say, as a US citizen who is immigrating to Canada, that it does work, and no it does not generate freeloading. Taxes are higher in Canada, though, to be fair, and I think this is why people are upset... however, raising taxes is not always bad for the economy. We all like a tax refund, yeah, but honestly how many people do you know that blew their tax refund on a big screen TV or the likes? Do you really think that's going to have half the positive "butterfly" effect on the overall US economic health that tax cut proponents say it will?

    I can't imagine how successful the US economy would be if we were just the slightest bit more selective with capitalism... but noo. "COMPETITION SMASH ALL, ALL THE TIMES, IN ALL AREAS. MAKE MORE MONEY" Such "econoclasts" are the economic intellectual equivalent of pubescent high school football players... our economy pays for our one-size-fits-all ignorance and it's not helping anybody.


    California is an excellent example of why capitalism and healthcare should not mix:
    http://truecostofhealthcare.org/hosp...ncial_analysis
    "My sister puts up a front so people won't know how vulnerable she really is. Me? I put up a front so people won't know how vulnerable I'm not." - Dexter

  4. #64
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    @LevelZeroHero Walmart can only afford their prices because of government support. They're basically the largest welfare receiver. That's not healthy capitalism. That's dysfunctional.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  5. #65
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    @LevelZeroHero Walmart can only afford their prices because of government support. They're basically the largest welfare receiver. That's not healthy capitalism. That's dysfunctional.
    My point was that the end of healthy capitalism should be the greater good of everyone, not the success of a given company at all costs... I only used Wal-mart to illustrate this because it would have made a surprising example of healthy capitalism aside from this caveat, however, if they do get government aid then that's not capitalism anyways... it's more like privatized socialism.

    Obviously, they shouldn't receive help from the government... if that means they raise prices and lose business, that will still lead to a better economic balance for the US since the government aid would ideally be invested somewhere more appropriate sans executive kickbacks.
    "My sister puts up a front so people won't know how vulnerable she really is. Me? I put up a front so people won't know how vulnerable I'm not." - Dexter

  6. #66
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I really don't understand how people can resist other people from getting medical treatment!? Do they have any compassion?

  7. #67
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    I really don't understand how people can resist other people from getting medical treatment!? Do they have any compassion?
    They think they're paying taxes so that some lazy welfare freeloader can abuse the system. Or maybe one of those illegal immigrants we're already supporting, right? People who have lived in other countries who do provide tax-funded healthcare systems have confirmed that it doesn't lead to this, though... and ironically, in countries like Canada, the government subsidiary leads to greater immigration restrictions to prevent people from ending up on the government's dime illegitimately.

    What's even more ironic is that privatized healthcare is the reason why prices have become so exorbitant in the US, and if it was tax-funded then the overall cost to provide would drop dramatically over time. It wouldn't be such a big deal as it seems now that someone needs to go to the hospital, just like in other tax-funded healthcare countries.

    I don't think it's a lack of compassion as much as ignorance enough to think that it's going to be some illegal immigrants or welfare freeloaders abusing the system, and not the private healthcare providers, who make it so expensive. As it turns out, there are plenty of working examples of tax-funded healthcare so on some level there's ignorance about that as well.
    "My sister puts up a front so people won't know how vulnerable she really is. Me? I put up a front so people won't know how vulnerable I'm not." - Dexter

  8. #68
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    I really don't understand how people can resist other people from getting medical treatment!? Do they have any compassion?
    It is "means justifies the ends" reasoning.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #69
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    People who have lived in other countries who do provide tax-funded healthcare systems have confirmed that it doesn't lead to this...
    .
    I live in other country where we have tax-funded healtcare system. That's why I cannot understand why people don't want other people to be helped...

  10. #70
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    Capitalism and socialism are right for some things, wrong for some things.
    I think this sentence strikes at the heart of the matter.

    Should health-care be a for-profit endeavor? Do we favor the value of freedom over the values of compassion and dignity? The ethical considerations are profound.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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