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  1. #51
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    Obama is black - it's only appropriate I post this spoiler here:



    Those have to be the most intelligent people I've ever seen!

  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And how well does single payer poll with the populace?
    I'm not sure. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it polls higher than repealing ACA, though.

    But what do you care?

    "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

    Sometimes it isn't just a matter of following every popular whim.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #53
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    @Seymour

    To quote your quote:

    Put this in contrast to what you wrote above:

    It was designed to seem anodyne enough to draw Republicans to the table. Once we had been there long enough for Democrats to claim that whatever was produced was bipartisan, they adopted the individual mandate (knowing that that was a line in the sand for us) and went about their way crafting the bill completely to suit their needs foregoing any bipartisan pretenses the bill may have contained at its creation.

    There were no market oriented solutions and no real cost savings. There are no conservative policy inputs here, just one more lurching step towards the kind of central planning about half the country holds in such high regard.
    One problem here the order of events needed for causality. The individual mandate ("individual responsibility!") was a conservative idea until the Democrats adopted it.

    To quote an New Yorker article on the subject:

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorker
    Ten years later, Senator Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat, began picking his way back through the history—he read “The System” four times—and he, too, came to focus on the Chafee bill. He began building a proposal around the individual mandate, and tested it out on both Democrats and Republicans. “Between 2004 and 2008, I saw over eighty members of the Senate, and there were very few who objected,” Wyden says. In December, 2006, he unveiled the Healthy Americans Act. In May, 2007, Bob Bennett, a Utah Republican, who had been a sponsor of the Chafee bill, joined him. Wyden-Bennett was eventually co-sponsored by eleven Republicans and nine Democrats, receiving more bipartisan support than any universal health-care proposal in the history of the Senate. It even caught the eye of the Republican Presidential aspirants. In a June, 2009, interview on “Meet the Press,” Mitt Romney, who, as governor of Massachusetts, had signed a universal health-care bill with an individual mandate, said that Wyden-Bennett was a plan “that a number of Republicans think is a very good health-care plan—one that we support.”
    And you really think that a plan crafted to suit Democrats wouldn't have been more liberal and at least included a single payer option? ObamaCare is not some extreme liberal ideal of a heath care plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not sure. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it [single payer system] polls higher than repealing ACA, though.
    So, let's be generous and say 35% is the number to beat to out poll those wanting to stop/delay the rollout of ObamaCare:

    A 2007 Yahoo/AP poll showed a majority of respondents considered themselves supporters of "single-payer health care,"[72] and a plurality of respondents in a 2009 poll for Time Magazine showed support for "a national single-payer plan similar to Medicare for all."[73] Polls by Rasmussen Reports in 2011[74] and 2012[75] showed pluralities opposed to single payer health care.
    And note this is polling for single payer health care, not just a single payer option. Sounds like a single payer system is more defensible based on popular opinion (even according to Rasmussen) than stopping ObamaCare.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    @Seymour

    There may be evidence of jobs all going part time yet, but Obama care doesn't kick in fully until January 1st after all. Let's see what happens then. Also, I am also a programming student at the moment and am learning both Java and VB right now, so I get your code reference, lol.
    Well, the 30 hour per week provision doesn't kick until 2015 (as far as I can tell), but I agree we won't know the full effects of the individual mandate and health care exchanges until a good while after they go into effect (next year, at least).

    Glad you appreciated the geeky metaphor! They are hard to resist.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not sure. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it polls higher than repealing ACA, though.

    But what do you care?

    "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

    Sometimes it isn't just a matter of following every popular whim.
    Getting elected is a matter of doing just that.

    Governing is another matter entirely.

  5. #55
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Getting elected is a matter of doing just that.

    Governing is another matter entirely.
    Right. Governing isn't necessarily a matter of doing whatever the popular whim is.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    IThere's no statistical evidence (at least not yet) that ObamaCare is forcing people into part time status. See this post, that includes links to articles from Forbes and Bloomberg that looked for such an association and couldn't find evidence to that effect (despite being motivated to do so).
    I'm not saying that it WILL for sure be a major issue.. but to assume no business is doing this is.. a bit naive. Real people are calling into radio stations talking about their job hours being cut back as soon as this looked like it would implement. It could be a temporary problem, or a minor one.. but it is a potential concern none the less.

    People get their hours cut already to avoid all kinds of things--over time, current benefits, recession buffering.. There are many companies that would tippy-toe the current scale, and until this becomes the norm a lot of people are going to have to deal with schedule changes. Not that I say it's bad in the long run--but it is a current concern. A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck. Not to be negative, but Forbes really doesn't concern themselves with the Joe Schmoe mechanic shop down the street from me. They're looking at things on the bigger picture.

    And, what if ObamaCare had instead raised income taxes somewhat, but given a tax breaks to those who paid for their own insurance (thereby rewarding taking responsible for one's own health)? Would that be okay if it worked out to monetarily the same thing? Is the problem in the phrasing ("you must"), rather than the outcome (people who obtain health insurance pay less in taxes, people who aren't so responsible pay more)?
    To put my own stance in perspective: I think we're long overdue for a system overhaul. The fact that anyone is trying anything is at least given consideration in that perspective.

    But to say "Hey, you don't have to pay your taxes so much if you get your own health insurance" won't accomplish the objective. I don't want a system set up where, yet again, poor people end up with shitty coverage and overcrowded facilities while people who can afford their own treatment find every way possible to keep their money out of aid.

    I want a system set up that EVERYONE has to use--from the wealthy to the poorest. If Congress has to use the same type of emergency rooms and hospitals as my neighbor, I'd be happy with whatever they came up with. Of course there's always going to be extras to pay for--medical spas, sports health and doctors, specialty care, etc. But if the system is set up in a way where it doesn't matter who you are you'll be in the system, then I'd agree it is a good system.

    As much as this current system is being advertised as compromising and not being so radical as people think.. I don't think it is radical enough if everyone trying to put the system into practice is exempt from it.

    As a programmer, I know that adding features to something existing results in more complication than starting over from scratch and designing all those features in from the beginning. ObamaCare is a patch on our existing health insurance system, not a total rewrite. It's inelegant in many ways, but it was designed to be possible, not perfect.
    I completely agree with this. It is nearly impossible to completely shut down one thing and start up a new thing. But What I think would be possible:

    - Emergency care & life/limb/eyesight doctor visits, and all care for veterans, the terminal, elderly people, and children under 18 are covered. The facilities are united in approach across the board, and unless you hire a private doctor out of your own pocket you'll be using these facilities for these things no matter how rich or poor you are. Ideally, you wouldn't even need to walk into that place with a wallet.
    - Government standards on insurance coverage outside of these dire issues
    - Government offered employees for quick sick consultations covered by insurance. So much money is absolutely wasted in emergencies rooms as well as time because people walk in there because they just don't know what is wrong. The primary care physician is gone for the day, and the only choice left is to go to the emergency room. They aren't dire, they know they aren't, but they crowd up those places and eat up their insurance benefits anyways with this. Having a buffer zone between the normal doctor visits and routine care and the emergency room is absolutely necessary to me.
    - Insurance companies would cover a variety of things, but ideally... the patient pays for the insurance monthly, and that's ALL they need to pay. No co-pays at the office itself too. The actual manufacturing price for generic brands, and market prices for brand name prescriptions. With different levels for varying lifestyles, and a cheaper rate since insurances no longer have to deal with emergency room stuff, it wouldn't be abnormal to ask people to pay for health insurance to cover themselves and keep themselves healthy vs. currently where I'm actually paying 3x more for the SAME health coverage by buying health insurance vs just paying out of pocket like I've been doing.

    Most importantly of all: Gradual shifting of this. Start with implementing the idea, and getting the research, and having it set up to where when it IS ready to switch over, it is truly ready, because it has been running side-by-side with the current system for a long time now. The Obamacare website shuts down every night. It was NOT ready for the mass of people needing to sign up for coverage through it. I don't understand how anyone expects all of America to be signed up for and ready for this shift by January with the website shutting down nightly and the government itself shut down over the issue.

    All I hear as a poor, working class American, is "My mother now has to pay for BOTH tricare AND medicare because if she drops tricare she drops ALL health coverage so she technically has to pay for two health insurances. My father paid his whole life into SSID, and since he decided to own his own business for the past decade, he is no longer allowed to tap into that pool that he contributed to for 30 years. I have to pay $200/month now for health care, go back to the army if I want it cheaper than that, or pay $95/year for not getting health insurance I hardly ever use because I use the VA hospital for everything." .. No thanks.
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  7. #57
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    I'm in a Republican state, and some of my colleagues have new forcibly reduced hours to save the business $. One of my friends is literally in labor right this moment, has been since yesterday morning (with that many hours, I'm assuming she'll be recovering both from efforts for a vaginal labor and an undesired but necessary c-section, which means it'll be a hard recovery). She can't take any time off work because she and her husband have to pay $1 500/mo to keep the family health benefits. HR recommended she take no more than a week off with no pay (and this comes out of her vacation hours).

    I see the GOP points that people like @DiscoBiscuit are making. It's going to be very, very hard for her and her family, and given that America's system is inhumane, they should have the choice to keep paying the $1500 depending on the health of the kid. Maybe it's healthier and less stressful to not be insured than to pay $1500 a month on top of daycare, etc.

    It really needs to be upgraded to a tax-funded system that people can choose to upgrade with private insurance if they want a luxurious medical experience. I've lived both tax-funded and USA systems, and it's loads better to have a national health care system. Mexico, countries in Asia and the Middle East, and literally the rest of the developed world have the system in place and it's shown to have better outcomes for the nation's physical health and economic productivity. America is in inhumane country if you don't have money.
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  8. #58
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Also: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...obamacare.html

    UNITED STATES (The Borowitz Report)—Millions of Tea Party loyalists fled the United States in the early morning hours today, seeking what one of them called “the American dream of liberty from health care.”

    Harland Dorrinson, 47, a tire salesman from Lexington, Kentucky, packed up his family and whatever belongings he could fit into his Chevy Suburban just hours before the health-insurance exchanges opened, joining the Tea Party’s Freedom Caravan with one goal in mind: escape from Obamacare.

    “My father didn’t have health care and neither did my father’s father before him,” he said. “I’ll be damned if I’m going to let my children have it.”

    But after driving over ten hours to the Canadian border, Mr. Dorrinson was dismayed to learn that America’s northern neighbor had been in the iron grip of health care for decades.

    “The border guard was so calm when he told me, as if it was the most normal thing in the world,” he said. “It’s like he was brainwashed by health care.”

    Turning away from Canada, Mr. Dorrinson joined a procession of Tea Party cars heading south to Mexico, noting, “They may have drug cartels and narcoterrorism down there, but at least they’ve kept health care out.”

    Mr. Dorrinson was halfway to the southern border before he heard through the Tea Party grapevine that Mexico, too, has public health care, as do Great Britain, Japan, Turkey, Spain, Belgium, New Zealand, Slovenia, and dozens of other countries to which he had considered fleeing.

    Undaunted, Mr. Dorrinson said he had begun looking into additional countries, like Chad and North Korea, but he expressed astonishment at a world seemingly overrun by health care.

    “It turns out that the United States is one of the last countries on earth to get it,” he said. “It makes me proud to be an American.”
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
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  9. #59
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    People in US arent able to do the whole social heath care thing properly because the country is ruled by corporations that want big money. I mean US already spends shit loads money on health care, but because they dont run the thing properly, not many people get any benefits for the tax money.
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  10. #60
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    An excerpt from an excellent article by Dimitri Simes over at the magnificent National Interest.

    http://nationalinterest.org/commenta...dstanding-9183

    As Politico’s Todd Purdrum has compellingly argued, Mr. Obama is facing the natural and predictable consequences of his decision to force transformative health care legislation without bipartisan support and using every possible parliamentary maneuver after the Democrats lost their filibuster-proof majority in the Senate following voter rejection of the bill in a special election after the death of Senator Ted Kennedy in the very liberal state of Massachusetts. The President and his supporters also used every possible argument without particularly caring whether their case stood up over time—though they insisted before the law’s passage that it was not a tax, they happily embraced the Supreme Court’s decision that the law fell within the Congressional authority to tax. That angry Republicans legislators should show little restraint in response may be tactically unwise but should not be surprising to anyone. As Purdum reports, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel “begged” Obama to compromise with Republicans to avoid retribution down the road.

    The biggest problem for President Obama is that his neoimperial approach to healthcare reform did not take place in isolation. It has its parallels in many other sectors of American life, including many in which Mr. Obama could get no Congressional support at all and has elected to rule by executive order. Environmental Protection Agency efforts to regulate carbon dioxide emissions from power plants in the wake of the White House’s failure to pass climate-change legislation provide one example; selective enforcement of immigration laws are another. In each of these cases, the president is also trying to remake society to reflect his preferences without building broadly based support—meaning that the moves are not only politically provocative, but fundamentally unsustainable in a two-party political system with periodic changes in leadership.

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