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  1. #351
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    The healthcare market is inherently imperfect due to the vast information asymmetry between Suppliers and Consumers at all levels, meaning that cheating is incentivized at all levels: Pharmaceutical -> Doctor -> Patient. The market is absolutely dependent on government-sponsored structures (warranties, authentication, etc.) to remove these incentives, allowing the market to function as optimally as possible.
    Thank goodness we have government involved in the equation, so that Pharmaceutical Companies, Doctors, and Patients don't cheat the system.

    (Wait... wut?... Did you just seriously say that with a straight face.?

  2. #352
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Thank goodness we have government involved in the equation, so that Pharmaceutical Companies, Doctors, and Patients don't cheat the system.

    (Wait... wut?... Did you just seriously say that with a straight face.?
    No, I didn't. Try again.

  3. #353
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    This one made me chuckle. And what is being civilized? Providing essential services (like healthcare) to the disenfranchised perhaps? Apparently not.

    Anyways, it doesn't take much research to determine the pre-Obamacare American health system was one of the worst in the western world (based on dollars spent vs health outcomes). So change was/is needed. It sounds like the insurance lobby managed to get its interests protected at the expense of the majority with Obamacare though. Too bad, but one hopes it is a step in the right direction.

    It seems the sensible thing to do would be to examine the various systems used in the western world and model a new American system based on the one that seemed to provide best bang for the buck. However, outsize corporate profits would suffer under pretty much any of those systems. American's appear to get very upset at the notion of the government prioritizing the good of it's citizens over corporate profits.
    Without profit, you will eventually no longer be able to provide healthcare to the disenfranchised. Oh well, just keep those government printing presses spitting out new money. And while they're at it, why not use the printing presses to print out my tax money? If the government can print money, why tax at all? Just pay for everything with printed money, including the healthcare of the disenfranchised.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #354
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    The healthcare market is inherently imperfect due to the vast information asymmetry between Suppliers and Consumers at all levels
    You can say that of all products. I know nothing about the ipad or about oled tvs but I do know that Samsung just slashed the price of their 55 incher by $2,000 and I do know that TVs have gotten larger and cheaper over the years. Why would you need to know about healthcare when there will be many people who'll do that for you. Just as with Amazon product reviews and Consumer Reports, there will be many guiding forces that help you make the decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    The market is absolutely dependent on government-sponsored structures (warranties, authentication, etc.) to remove these incentives, allowing the market to function as optimally as possible.
    I hope you are joking if you are suggesting that government intrusion helps make anything function more optimally. Look at healthcare.gov, hahhhhh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugman
    One is that you don’t know when or whether you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive.
    Mr. Krugman, people can buy catastrophic insurance right now. The reason why care is expensive is because it's subsidized by the government and because of other government policies that increase demand like mandated coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugman
    Both of these strategies use a lot of resources, which is why private insurance has much higher administrative costs than single-payer systems.
    If Krugman is worried about administrative costs, then he'd support the repeal of Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid since these programs have significant administrative costs (over $400 billion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugman
    There are, however, no examples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn’t work.
    There are many successful stories of doctors who've opted out of Medicare and Medicaid entirely and rely on a pay-per-visit type of business.
    Perhaps Mr. Krugman should read some Milton Friedman because he obviously doesn't understand how the economy works.

    How to Cure Health Care by Milton Friedman
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #355
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Price of fixing Obamacare website rises to $121 million

    "Fixing the Obamacare website and improving it so it’s ready to handle a second round of enrollments will cost the federal government $121 million, according to Accenture, the contractor hired to repair the glitchy website after the original contractor, CGI Federal, was fired."

    But I thought it was already fixed, hhhaaaaahhhhh.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #356
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    You must be out of your mind to want leave the reins of healthcare entirely in the hands of the free market. The healthcare market is inherently imperfect due to the vast information asymmetry between Suppliers and Consumers at all levels, meaning that cheating is incentivized at all levels: Pharmaceutical -> Doctor -> Patient. The market is absolutely dependent on government-sponsored structures (warranties, authentication, etc.) to remove these incentives, allowing the market to function as optimally as possible.
    From what I've read, the issue isn't so much with information asymmetry but with the commoditization of healthcare. Healthy workers are inherently more productive and a healthy society has huge efficiency gains. The natural equilibrium of a private system is to avoid healthcare (eg: preventative, unable to afford) while a socialised system tends to over-check (eg: non-sick people visiting the doctor). In any case, the impact isn't in budget dollars or tragedy of the few cases (that are sadly much more present in a private system, but not as transparent) but in raw economic efficiency. It can only be measured at the raw economic output level - GNP/GDP or more local equivalents.

    The direct effect of commoditization is straightforward is seen in its violation one of the principles of medicine: the patient comes first. It's not qualified by "if they can afford it" or "I'll have to find an alternative". Yes, all doctors are resource bound (by healthcare services if not something else), but this doesn't just apply at the physician level. Insurance companies, that have no particular oath to hold up, benefit by putting the patient last (or at least until legal issues balance out the benefits). The unaligned incentives are the true root of why the US has such poor care compared to the majority of the world. This applies to those that can't afford it, such as myself when I was between jobs and had to have surgery (my 20 years of working life: 1 year not, would of been a disaster in the States). Society inherently gained from my ability to continue contributing; the doctors putting patients first is naturally aligned with that social outcome.

  7. #357
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    You can say that of all products. I know nothing about the ipad or about oled tvs but I do know that Samsung just slashed the price of their 55 incher by $2,000 and I do know that TVs have gotten larger and cheaper over the years. Why would you need to know about healthcare when there will be many people who'll do that for you. Just as with Amazon product reviews and Consumer Reports, there will be many guiding forces that help you make the decision.



    I hope you are joking if you are suggesting that government intrusion helps make anything function more optimally. Look at healthcare.gov, hahhhhh.



    Mr. Krugman, people can buy catastrophic insurance right now. The reason why care is expensive is because it's subsidized by the government and because of other government policies that increase demand like mandated coverage.



    If Krugman is worried about administrative costs, then he'd support the repeal of Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid since these programs have significant administrative costs (over $400 billion).



    There are many successful stories of doctors who've opted out of Medicare and Medicaid entirely and rely on a pay-per-visit type of business.
    Perhaps Mr. Krugman should read some Milton Friedman because he obviously doesn't understand how the economy works.

    How to Cure Health Care by Milton Friedman
    [/Thread]
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #358
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Without profit, you will eventually no longer be able to provide healthcare to the disenfranchised. Oh well, just keep those government printing presses spitting out new money. And while they're at it, why not use the printing presses to print out my tax money? If the government can print money, why tax at all? Just pay for everything with printed money, including the healthcare of the disenfranchised.
    It's not black and white. There are still lots of economic areas where I would never suggest any government intervention (most of them as a matter of fact). Those areas are free to be as profitable as the market lets them.

    I'm simply suggesting the health of a countries citizens may not be the best area for corporate laissez-faire to be allowed to seek maximize profit. Emphasis on maximize, because the health care industry in all countries with socialized medicine still makes a non-trivial amount profit, just not quite as much as they would like. Charging the rich top dollar, and letting the poor die is certainly more optimal in terms of profit. I'm not sure it's the optimal outcome for the populace as a whole however.

  9. #359
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    It's not black and white. There are still lots of economic areas where I would never suggest any government intervention (most of them as a matter of fact). Those areas are free to be as profitable as the market lets them.

    I'm simply suggesting the health of a countries citizens may not be the best area for corporate laissez-faire to be allowed to seek maximize profit. Emphasis on maximize, because the health care industry in all countries with socialized medicine still makes a non-trivial amount profit, just not quite as much as they would like. Charging the rich top dollar, and letting the poor die is certainly more optimal in terms of profit. I'm not sure it's the optimal outcome for the populace as a whole however.
    Who's letting the poor die?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #360
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    This is too funny to not share:

    Report: Obamacare contractors paid to do nothing

    "The British-based private contractor Serco was awarded a contract worth up to $1.25 billion to process Obamacare applications, but its employees have practically nothing to do on the job, according to a report from St. Louis CBS affiliate KMOV."

    ""They're told to sit at their computers and hit the refresh button every 10 minutes- no more than every 10 minutes," the Serco employee said. "They're monitored to hopefully look for an application. Their goals are set to process two applications per month, and some people are not even able to do that.""

    Also, this UK based firm is being investigated for fraud in the UK. Can't make this stuff up. Resign now, Mr. President.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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