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  1. #341
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    @grey_beard:

    I think you may be referring to the newer philosophy on reducing chronic homelessness in the U.S. that has been shown to be quite effective and is endorsed by HUD and other housing programs. It's called Housing First and is based on the premise that when individuals are given stable housing that isn't contingent on other conditions, the rate of chronic homelessness can be reduced long term. And yes, it is more cost effective. (No worries, I read tons of reports/articles/interviews and can't recall all of them either).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First

    The program is counter-intuitive to the typical belief that a "non-productive" member of society (and for the record, I don't agree with that premise, everyone is unique and contributions are measured in many ways) will remain non-productive if given housing and other supports. What the program has found is that stable housing is the catalyst for many people getting off the streets and re-entering society. Is it perfect? No, but no rehabilitation/human service model is but it is being in more and more major cities because the results have been positive. It has been in effect in the city where I live for many years.

    I have worked with homeless people and I rarely ran into someone who just wanted to take from the system (unless they were using and not able to deal with their problems or reality at that time)...they all talked about work, their families and even helping others. Some of the chronically mentally ill who were dealing with severe delusions or paranoia had difficulty being in shelters (fear, violence, past traumas) and preferred the streets.

    And I'm not saying there aren't some percentage "gaming" the system but it is small in comparison to the people who truly need and benefit from the services, whether housing or health care.

    FWIW, Obama phones are a myth...I have worked with people that have this service and the program exists through the FCC and was in effect before Obama became president.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  2. #342
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list

    "At least 40 U.S. veterans died waiting for appointments at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, many of whom were placed on a secret waiting list.

    The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources."

    This is the quality of care that we can expect from Obamacare as well and this is why the government should stay out of the healthcare business entirely.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  3. #343
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    @Tellenbach: No doubt this is a tragedy and disgusting but you can't equate that isolated incident in Phoenix with some very unethical VA managers to the entire hybridized private/public health care system known as Obamacare. I'm really not understanding why you think the private insurance companies give a crap about regulating themselves or performing services that are cost-effective...of course they don't because they are corporations and they are REQUIRED to make a profit.

    Unregulated corporations=overpriced medications/procedures + denial of medications/procedures

    Again, I am not a big fan of Obamacare but it is a step in the right direction to eliminate recission, and require standards of health care plans. I am all for universal health care even though it has its pro/cons.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  4. #344
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica
    No doubt this is a tragedy and disgusting but you can't equate that isolated incident in Phoenix with some very unethical VA managers to the entire hybridized private/public health care system known as Obamacare.
    It's not an isolated incident. It's not even unusual. Here's an example from the UK:

    "The Office for National Statistics figures also showed that:

    1) as well as 43 people who starved to death, 287 people were recorded by doctors as being malnourished when they died in hospitals;

    2) there were 558 cases where doctors recorded that a patient had died in a state of severe dehydration in hospitals;

    3) In July, an inquest heard that a young man who died of dehydration at a leading hospital rang 999 for police because he was so thirsty.

    4) In total, 767 care home residents and hospital patients had bedsores when they died. In 78 cases in hospitals, and 39 cases in care homes, it was listed as the direct cause of death on deathc certificates."

    Why do we want to bring this type of healthcare here? Every government run healthcare system increases demand, lowers the quality of care, raises prices, and rations care to levels that we don't see here in the US.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #345
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    @Tellenbach: It is confusing because you are mixing in NHS statistics with VA incidences. Your previous example was about the VA in Phoenix (and yes, I am aware of the other cases of neglect at Walter Reed). I have witnessed and investigated cases of institutional abuse and neglect and it is horrifying, absolutely horrifying (including death). There are sometimes criminal and civil legal avenues to take to correct this, but not always.

    Also, I am in agreement that no health care system is perfect (and thanks for sharing this info. on NHS) but would you rather have NO medical care for the indigent, NO safety net...and I don't consider ERS a humane or economically viable way to address that need in our society.

    What exactly are you proposing? Absolutely no government subsidized health care and the insurance industry regulates itself? Seems you would be a very strong supporter of the Paul Ryan budget and that is something I will never support.

    Again, why is our country so afraid to do a comprehensive, comparative analysis of other countries and their health care...I am thinking the profit margin wouldn't be high enough for both the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. And in the end only the wealthiest are getting a high standard of care because money talks.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  6. #346
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica
    Also, I am in agreement that no health care system is perfect (and thanks for sharing this info. on NHS) but would you rather have NO medical care for the indigent, NO safety net...and I don't consider ERS a humane or economically viable way to address that need in our society.
    Let the free market solve all these problems. The free market has created more powerful computers that are cheaper, same with smart phones, and tablets. I don't know if you read the article I posted about Medicare and Medicaid waste, but in the UK, roughly 50% of healthcare expenditures go towards paying bureaucrats who don't provide any medical care. Let that sink in for a moment.

    The US spends over $700 billion per year on Medicare and Medicaid. Over $350 billion of it is going to bureaucrats that run these programs. That's $350 billion that's not going to provide healthcare for patients. Don't you think that's a bit wasteful? Don't you think that $350 billion would be better spent paying doctors and nurses? With Obamacare, we're going to need an additional 16,000 IRS agents and 153 new bureaucracies to run it. Does it make sense to you that we're spending billions hiring tax collectors and other paper shufflers?

    Why not deregulate healthcare (repeal Obamacare and slowly phase out Medicare/Medicaid) and give the people that $700 billion instead? If you give people that money, they'll be much much more careful with how they spend it and they won't let doctors and hospitals rip them off to the extent that we're seeing right now ($100 billion/year in fraud and abuse).
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #347
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    You're paying a private auto insurer. This auto insurer wants to make a profit. Profit is what frees us to do things such as -- being civilized.
    This one made me chuckle. And what is being civilized? Providing essential services (like healthcare) to the disenfranchised perhaps? Apparently not.

    Anyways, it doesn't take much research to determine the pre-Obamacare American health system was one of the worst in the western world (based on dollars spent vs health outcomes). So change was/is needed. It sounds like the insurance lobby managed to get its interests protected at the expense of the majority with Obamacare though. Too bad, but one hopes it is a step in the right direction.

    It seems the sensible thing to do would be to examine the various systems used in the western world and model a new American system based on the one that seemed to provide best bang for the buck. However, outsize corporate profits would suffer under pretty much any of those systems. American's appear to get very upset at the notion of the government prioritizing the good of it's citizens over corporate profits.

  8. #348
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Let the free market solve all these problems. The free market has created more powerful computers that are cheaper, same with smart phones, and tablets. I don't know if you read the article I posted about Medicare and Medicaid waste, but in the UK, roughly 50% of healthcare expenditures go towards paying bureaucrats who don't provide any medical care. Let that sink in for a moment.
    You must be out of your mind to want leave the reins of healthcare entirely in the hands of the free market. The healthcare market is inherently imperfect due to the vast information asymmetry between Suppliers and Consumers at all levels, meaning that cheating is incentivized at all levels: Pharmaceutical -> Doctor -> Patient. The market is absolutely dependent on government-sponsored structures (warranties, authentication, etc.) to remove these incentives, allowing the market to function as optimally as possible.

    Here, an article with an agenda to match yours - but without unfounded statistics.

  9. #349
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    @grey_beard:

    I think you may be referring to the newer philosophy on reducing chronic homelessness in the U.S. that has been shown to be quite effective and is endorsed by HUD and other housing programs. It's called Housing First and is based on the premise that when individuals are given stable housing that isn't contingent on other conditions, the rate of chronic homelessness can be reduced long term. And yes, it is more cost effective. (No worries, I read tons of reports/articles/interviews and can't recall all of them either).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First

    The program is counter-intuitive to the typical belief that a "non-productive" member of society (and for the record, I don't agree with that premise, everyone is unique and contributions are measured in many ways) will remain non-productive if given housing and other supports. What the program has found is that stable housing is the catalyst for many people getting off the streets and re-entering society. Is it perfect? No, but no rehabilitation/human service model is but it is being in more and more major cities because the results have been positive. It has been in effect in the city where I live for many years.

    I have worked with homeless people and I rarely ran into someone who just wanted to take from the system (unless they were using and not able to deal with their problems or reality at that time)...they all talked about work, their families and even helping others. Some of the chronically mentally ill who were dealing with severe delusions or paranoia had difficulty being in shelters (fear, violence, past traumas) and preferred the streets.

    And I'm not saying there aren't some percentage "gaming" the system but it is small in comparison to the people who truly need and benefit from the services, whether housing or health care.

    FWIW, Obama phones are a myth...I have worked with people that have this service and the program exists through the FCC and was in effect before Obama became president.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/
    @statuesquechica --

    Beg to differ on one point: Obamaphones are not a myth: I found an expose on line, not that homeless people were being given phones, but rather the people used to "spread the word" about the phones were actually union members being paid $11 / hour to hawk the program.
    Factcheck.org is a leftwing site therefore not necessarily reliable. (see also the ubiquitous sobriquet "Faux News"...)

    And a caution:

    I have worked with homeless people and I rarely ran into someone who just wanted to take from the system
    -- the plural of anecdotes is not necessarily *good* data.
    Beware of self-selection sampling, methodological solipsism, and the like.

    Best way to get the truth is to go to all the left-wing, right-wing, and libertarian sources (and any others you can think of) and do an analogy to a sociological-political-psychological Newton-Raphson or Hartree-Fock iterative procedure between them...
    Yeah it's an odd metaphor.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  10. #350
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    @grey_beard:

    I am saying "Obamaphones" are a myth because the program began before Obama as a federally-subsidized phone program and was a legacy handed down during FDR's presidency through the FCC. Yes, a phone program exists, but it isn't free nor is it a premium plan. It is for low income people so they can access emergency numbers and have a work contact number.

    Calling it "Obamaphone" is just another way to spread propaganda through the GOP and its followers.

    FYI: I did look at other sources; I chose Factcheck.org because it summarized the history and program so well. Cross-referencing is a must in this day and age. Also, I am talking about my first-hand experience when working with the homeless...I am not so naïve to think this is everyone's experience. It seems you yourself are too heavily relying on an expose and basing your opinion off that limited information.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

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