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  1. #311
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Sure, why not?

    Imagine paying only for the roads that you use, via something like easy-pass.
    No way. That would be horrible for poor people. I will never understand this selfishness is a virtue thing.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  2. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    What magic happens that makes men with guns demanding money, something other than thieves?
    Wow, you served this one up on a platter. The magic that happens is grandma gets her kidney, and you get to go to school or have your trash collected or get protected by police. In your example, you leave out the part where the "thieves" give you important, necessary stuff.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  3. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Sure, why not?

    Imagine paying only for the roads that you use, via something like easy-pass.
    You know, your phone bill subsidizes people out in the sticks who'd have to pay to have miles of telephone line installed if they bore the entire cost. Do you think your phone bill should be fifty cents less a month so that some others have to pay hundreds of dollars a month for a simple landline? Or do you think the way it's set up generally works out pretty well?
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  4. #314
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Wow, you served this one up on a platter. The magic that happens is grandma gets her kidney, and you get to go to school or have your trash collected or get protected by police. In your example, you leave out the part where the "thieves" give you important, necessary stuff.
    "Important necessary stuff" is great.

    You neglected however, to justify theft and force as necessary to provide them.

    Why are theft and force necessary to provide them?

  5. #315
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    No way. That would be horrible for poor people. I will never understand this selfishness is a virtue thing.
    I guess you really don't realize that poor people already pay the wasteful government just as much for the roads as rich people do.

  6. #316
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Real ones can.. and do... all the time.

    For simply failing to comply with government demands for money.

    I'm trying to get you to see something important in a different way. We are all raised in an environment that normalizes some behaviors that would be viewed as horrible crimes if engaged in by others.

    If your neighbor came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000, you'd call him a thief.

    If your neighbor came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant, you'd still call him a thief.

    If 10 of your neighbors came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant, you'd call them thieves.

    If 1000 of your neighbors came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant, you'd call them thieves.

    Where is the magic number?

    Is it a million?

    What magic happens that makes men with guns demanding money, something other than thieves?
    First off, I would be happy to donate $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant.

    That magic is called "legitimacy", a basic condition for governing according to wikipedia. When a people decide they like one group of gun toting thugs more than all the other groups of gun toting thugs, they call them a government. As you say, it is quite normal. If a government loses its legitimacy then it should, and probably will be replaced with a new group of gun toting thugs, unless there is some magical third option that you will reveal to me in a condescending manner after casually dismissing each of my points (I assume this is where you are going with these annoying hypothetical situations, it's just getting a bit too abstract for me).
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  7. #317
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    You know, your phone bill subsidizes people out in the sticks who'd have to pay to have miles of telephone line installed if they bore the entire cost. Do you think your phone bill should be fifty cents less a month so that some others have to pay hundreds of dollars a month for a simple landline? Or do you think the way it's set up generally works out pretty well?
    We can't have people living out in the sticks. They are encroaching on Mother Nature, destroying the wilderness, cutting down the rain forests.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #318
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    That is exactly the point. If people have to pay for something out of pocket and it's not subsidized, hospitals and doctors can't overcharge for those services.
    That's interesting, and I'm glad it works out in those few cases.

    Dental care or eye checkups aren't life saving. Thousands of subsidized procedures aren't life saving.
    Countries with socialized medicine seem to manage. That "Canadian health care in crisis" article you posted in crisis was from 2005, yet it is still around.

    Many services are not essential and downright stupid - for instance, mandating insurance to provide pre-natal care for women over 60. The analogy I like to use is forcing cable companies to provide a whole bunch of channels I'll never watch like Al-Jazeera or Oxygen or one of the foreign language channels. Why should I get charged for a whole bunch of TV channels I'll never use? Why not let the consumer decide for himself what he wants?
    I'm not really one to judge what people need or don't need for health care, I probably wont ever become pregnant (I lack the parts) but I still think it's important to provide prenatal care to the good ~50% of citizens that are able to make use of it, no matter how old.

    Some insurance plans provide one pair of free eyeglasses per year. If it weren't free, few people would get glasses each year because eyeglasses are expensive. If it is free, a large majority would get the "free" glasses. Does this not make sense?
    Well it makes sense with this example, but not with prenatal care for 60 year old women. My question was why would someone use more of a mandated benefit than they would use from a non mandated benefit. (I might have just misunderstood something you wrote, you can probably disregard this)

    Republicans pushed for tort reform in 2008 as part of Obamacare, but the Dems refused to enact it because trial lawyers are major donors to the Dems.
    Introducing tort reform would have made an already difficult bill to pass nigh impossible. I'm sure trial lawyers had very little to do with it. If tort reform is so easy to pass I'm sure they can do it some other time. Congress is pretty useless anyway, I don't think they need trial lawyers for that.

    Since we're on the subject of donors, Which republican donor is keeping immigration reform from going anywhere? I bet if we passed some immigration reform we could stop illegals from abusing the emergency room system. Why haven't republicans moved on that?
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  9. #319
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven
    Introducing tort reform would have made an already difficult bill to pass nigh impossible.
    Obamacare got zero Republican votes because the Dems refused to include any Republican ideas such as tort reform in the bill.

    I probably wont ever become pregnant (I lack the parts) but I still think it's important to provide prenatal care to the good ~50% of citizens that are able to make use of it, no matter how old.
    Senior citizens seldom get pregnant. Why not let them decide to pay for pre-natal care? What do you guys have against giving people choices?

    Since we're on the subject of donors, Which republican donor is keeping immigration reform from going anywhere?
    We think we'd have a better bill once the Republicans take control of the Senate in 2015 and the Presidency in 2017. Frankly, the Dems are liars and can't be trusted to enforce any immigration laws so it'd be stupid to pass a bill right now.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #320
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    First off, I would be happy to donate $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant.
    So would I.

    I object however, to it being stolen.

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