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  1. #301
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    His choice of garments notwithstanding, what is it you are excited to see happen to this person?

    Imprisonment?

    Didn't you just ask "Who has been threatened with prison time? "
    Hypothetical people can't go to prison. I hope he's able to make his case and get out of it though, wearing full colonial regalia, it would be an awesome story.
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  2. #302
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    If you resist government taxation, you risk imprisonment.

    If you resist imprisonment, you risk death.

    That is the implicit threat behind government claims on your earnings.

    And that is why few resist.
    Not the only reason, though. I like some of the stuff my taxes pay for. I'd like to see us cut way back on military spending, but I like roads and schools and firefighters and libraries and public assistance for the needy, etc.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #303
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Hypothetical people can't go to prison.
    Real ones can.. and do... all the time.

    For simply failing to comply with government demands for money.

    I'm trying to get you to see something important in a different way. We are all raised in an environment that normalizes some behaviors that would be viewed as horrible crimes if engaged in by others.

    If your neighbor came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000, you'd call him a thief.

    If your neighbor came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant, you'd still call him a thief.

    If 10 of your neighbors came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant, you'd call them thieves.

    If 1000 of your neighbors came to your door, and stuck a gun in your face and demanded $1000 for grandma's kidney transplant, you'd call them thieves.

    Where is the magic number?

    Is it a million?

    What magic happens that makes men with guns demanding money, something other than thieves?

  4. #304
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    I like some of the stuff my taxes pay for.
    If you liked it, you would buy it without the threat of force... wouldn't you?

  5. #305
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Why is it absurd?

    The fact that you don't want to provide the obvious answer makes clear that it is not absurd.

    Only uncomfortable.
    What penalty and prison time? It's only a small fee!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #306
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven
    Lipo and lasik are both voluntary procedures are subject to market forces. No one is going to get lasik or lipo if they are cost prohibitive, so there's an incentive to drop the price.
    That is exactly the point. If people have to pay for something out of pocket and it's not subsidized, hospitals and doctors can't overcharge for those services.

    Life saving procedures like chemo and heart surgery are not voluntary and are not subject to market forces, the incentive is to raise the price.
    Dental care or eye checkups aren't life saving. Thousands of subsidized procedures aren't life saving.

    Mandated coverage laws should raise the cost of coverage, why wouldn't they? Are we going to allow insurance companies to get away without providing essential services?
    Many services are not essential and downright stupid - for instance, mandating insurance to provide pre-natal care for women over 60. The analogy I like to use is forcing cable companies to provide a whole bunch of channels I'll never watch like Al-Jazeera or Oxygen or one of the foreign language channels. Why should I get charged for a whole bunch of TV channels I'll never use? Why not let the consumer decide for himself what he wants?

    Do we not need these services that are being mandated, and why would someone use more of a mandated service, versus a non-mandated service?
    Some insurance plans provide one pair of free eyeglasses per year. If it weren't free, few people would get glasses each year because eyeglasses are expensive. If it is free, a large majority would get the "free" glasses. Does this not make sense?

    There's no evidence that tort reform will reduce it by much, and there's no evidence to implicate democrats over republicans in this matter. (unless you have any hidden away?)
    Republicans pushed for tort reform in 2008 as part of Obamacare, but the Dems refused to enact it because trial lawyers are major donors to the Dems.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #307
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    If you liked it, you would buy it without the threat of force... wouldn't you?
    I could buy roads?

    I may or may not because I probably wouldn't have thought too much about it and just went along my merry way. Also, I've spent a lot of my life in poverty or being low-income and wouldn't have been able to contribute much. I certainly wouldn't have been able to pay for that stuff for myself on my own. We pay more now and will pay more as our kids get older, assuming our income stays steady and, IMO, that's only fair.

    But regardless of what I'd do there are a lot of people who will not pay for that stuff without the threat of force and quite a few people who don't pay for it in spite of the threat of force. They aren't too good to use the roads or call 911, etc however.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #308
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    I could buy roads?
    Sure, why not?

    Imagine paying only for the roads that you use, via something like easy-pass.

  9. #309
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Sure, why not?

    Imagine paying only for the roads that you use, via something like easy-pass.
    That's not buying roads, that's renting road:service. The difference is important because ownership implies rights while you do not naturally have the right to use someone else's property ("right" here in the tangible legal sense). Control over any link inherently decreases the efficiency of the system. Each link acts as a natural forming monopoly and even if you were to artificially create competition, multi-links between same notes is less net efficient.

  10. #310
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    That's not buying roads, that's renting road:service.
    And who would that service be purchased from?

    The road owner of course.

    (until relatively late in the history of the US, most roads were privately owned turnpikes)

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