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  1. #271
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Well, let us all hope that those young "invincibles" do not get ill, or get in an accident if they chose not to sign up. Ultimately, it is a tough decision and a gamble and just like @café said, I would not wish such a thing on my worst enemy.

    Obamacare is a hybrid system and as such it has more weaknesses than a universal health care system but it is a step forward from a debate that has been stuck in a quagmire of political b.s. for far too long. I would anticipate reform, amendments and (hopefully) a more enlightened and economically sound program in the future. I wish we had a system that was modeled after South Korea (watching a legislative forum it sounded far more progressive than the ACA).
    ACA obviously needs someone to pay into the system. That burden falls on the young. If the young don't want to pay, then ACA collapses - and will be replaced with a single-payer (universal) health insurance system. Whether the tax burden is graduated is a moot question.

    But the latter still needs to be paid for, and this depends on increased population growth. If population growth rate goes into decline, then socialized schemes can no longer be funded.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #272
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    You're paying a private auto insurer. This auto insurer wants to make a profit. Profit is what frees us to do things such as -- being civilized.
    The government makes me pay for private car insurance. The medical industry is making a profit. Germany, Australia, Canada, and France seem reasonably civilized to me. I mean, compared to America, a lot of places are really civilized.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #273
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    In fiscal year 2011, the US paid out $454 billion in interest on the federal debt. That's 20% of all federal receipts. Peter Schiff, The Real Crash.

    Here's the irony: the more we borrow and spend on stupid entitlements like Obamacare, the less money we'll have to spend on healthcare and everything else. The interest on the debt alone is enough to buy insurance for everyone who currently doesn't have it. I'm not sure why people think Canada has a better healthcare system. They don't and the evidence is in the fact that many rich Canadians flock to the US for medical care.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #274
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    In fiscal year 2011, the US paid out $454 billion in interest on the federal debt. That's 20% of all federal receipts. Peter Schiff, The Real Crash.

    Here's the irony: the more we borrow and spend on stupid entitlements like Obamacare, the less money we'll have to spend on healthcare and everything else. The interest on the debt alone is enough to buy insurance for everyone who currently doesn't have it. I'm not sure why people think Canada has a better healthcare system. They don't and the evidence is in the fact that many rich Canadians flock to the US for medical care.
    They really don't. That's a myth.

    Edit:
    [
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #275
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm not sure why people think Canada has a better healthcare system. They don't and the evidence is in the fact that many rich Canadians flock to the US for medical care.
    There was a fantastic legislative forum held by Senator Bernie Sanders on health care in other countries (UK, Canada, South Korea, US, Netherlands) that debunks that statement above. I wasn't able to find the full hearing on video but I think Senator Burr's arrogance and shitty attitude is embarrassing while the Canadian expert speaks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYOf6hXGx6M
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  6. #276
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    They really don't. That's a myth.
    "The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993."

    “In some cases, these patients needed to leave Canada due to a lack of available resources or a lack of appropriate procedure/technology,” according to the Institute. “In others, their departure will have been driven by a desire to return more quickly to their lives, to seek out superior quality care, or perhaps to save their own lives or avoid the risk of disability.”

    Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #277
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    "The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993."

    “In some cases, these patients needed to leave Canada due to a lack of available resources or a lack of appropriate procedure/technology,” according to the Institute. “In others, their departure will have been driven by a desire to return more quickly to their lives, to seek out superior quality care, or perhaps to save their own lives or avoid the risk of disability.”

    Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011

    So, Canada has about... what? 33 million people in 2011? So 46K of 33 million is 0.14%?

    I can easily buy some well off Canadian folks are willing to pay extra for more immediate access to services (or for luxury services) in the US. But 0.14% is hardly terrifically telling.

    Looks like about 750k of people in the US participated in medical tourism to other countries out of 316m in 2008. That's about 0.24% of the US population at the time, should we consider those people a representation of the US's failing medical system, almost double the number of people who looked elsewhere from Canada?

  8. #278
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    "The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993."

    “In some cases, these patients needed to leave Canada due to a lack of available resources or a lack of appropriate procedure/technology,” according to the Institute. “In others, their departure will have been driven by a desire to return more quickly to their lives, to seek out superior quality care, or perhaps to save their own lives or avoid the risk of disability.”
    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploa...-care-2012.pdf

    Above is the actual report in case you want to avoid any misinterpretation or media twist. Important to note that they say there were decreases in people seeking outside treatment in some areas, increases in other parts of Canada and some remained the same...also, much of this was elective surgeries and not emergency medical treatment, FYI. They also refer to it as medical tourism which is very common in the U.S. as well, as seen in Seymour's post above.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  9. #279
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour
    So, Canada has about... what? 33 million people in 2011? So 46K of 33 million is 0.14%?
    The majority of the population don't see a doctor each year. Out of that 33 million, maybe 8 million visit a doctor or a hospital and out of that 8 million, perhaps only 200,000 require surgery, so 46,000 is a huge number. Keep in mind, that's only the number who can afford to escape Canada. The actual number who want to leave but can't afford to is much higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour
    Looks like about 750k of people in the US participated in medical tourism to other countries out of 316m in 2008.
    The difference is: Americans shop around in other countries like Cuba, not because they want superior care but because it's cheaper. Canadians leave the country because their care is terrible. The challenge is to lower cost, not to reduce the quality of care as Obamacare will do.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #280
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The difference is: Americans shop around in other countries like Cuba, not because they want superior care but because it's cheaper. Canadians leave the country because their care is terrible. The challenge is to lower cost, not to reduce the quality of care as Obamacare will do.
    Americans try to shop around even in the U.S. - that is, after all, supposed to be the point of leaving heath care to the private sector - but have a hard time doing so because it is hard to find out exactly what various services and procedures cost ahead of time. Costs vary dramatically by location, provider, and other factors.

    American health care is more expensive than overseas for those who pay, in large part to cover those who cannot. What this means is that the wealthy (or well-insured) sick pay for some of the poor, while the rest of the poor often go without. The whole point of ACA, and a socialized system, is to include everyone in the risk pool: healthy and sick; young and old; poor, middle class, and wealthy; with some means testing to ease the burden on the poor/middle class. This is how public safety services are funded, and to some extent public education, with the means testing coming from the tax code.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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