User Tag List

First 6141516171826 Last

Results 151 to 160 of 365

  1. #151
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No implemented idea from the left has managed to lower health care costs in this country.
    Addresses nothing I've said.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If you're gonna throw up cost statistics, Democratic ideas should actually address cost, which they don't and which they haven't.
    The policies I've suggested, which some more left wing democrats have promoted for years, which were promoted by Hillary Clinton before this country went insanely right wing, would address costs, and I've explained how.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And your argument for single payer still has not expanded beyond the fact that there are extant single payer systems elsewhere in the world.
    Did you not pay attention a few weeks ago, or any of the previous 4 or 5 times I've explained this to you?

    The efficiency of insurance over emergency treatment?
    The economies of scale and the reduced administrative costs?
    The price agreements?

    The italics are most relevant to single payer in particular. I have explained these again and again. The last time I did, you said you'd get back to it, and never did. Which is what you usually do. You never address it. I'm not going to write those three points out in detail here again because I assume you will just put a bucket over your head and start hitting it with a stick, as that is what you have always done before.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Until it does, you have nothing substantive to say.
    Too late. It already has. Take that bucket off of your head, after removing said head from your ass, and you might notice.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  2. #152
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Addresses nothing I've said.

    The policies I've suggested, which some more left wing democrats have promoted for years, which were promoted by Hillary Clinton before this country went insanely right wing, would address costs, and I've explained how.

    Did you not pay attention a few weeks ago, or any of the previous 4 or 5 times I've explained this to you?

    The efficiency of insurance over emergency treatment?
    The economies of scale and the reduced administrative costs?
    The price agreements?

    The italics are most relevant to single payer in particular. I have explained these again and again. The last time I did, you said you'd get back to it, and never did. Which is what you usually do. You never address it. I'm not going to write those three points out in detail here again because I assume you will just put a bucket over your head and start hitting with a stick, as that is what you have always done before.

    Too late. It already has. Take that bucket off of your head, after removing said head from your ass, and you might notice.
    I don't need to address it, unless you can explain how after such a hindenbergian second term, anyone on the left will have the political capital to push a more leftist program.

    The only place your arguments work is in theory.

    No country with single payer has to pay to be the worlds police man, or shoulders the burden of being the worlds reserve currency.

    Also, those countries have a level of ethnic homogeneity that makes their populace more willing to have their wealth redistributed.

    Most importantly, the last time I checked, the Democrats controlled the WH, Senate, and House when they passed this, and were also enjoying one of the strongest post election honeymoons ever.

    If under those exceedingly advantageous circumstances, where the democrats basically got to write a domestic piece of legislation by themselves, they realized that even then the US public would never be amenable to single payer, I don't see how you clinging to it is a substantive argument.

    How do you expect the insurance industry to react when single payer is pushed? Of the US public for that matter?

    Health Care is big business in the US, and a lot of people make a lot of money in the industry.

    Intrenched monied interests will never support a program that kills an industry.

    So for a host of reasons, the Single Payer vs ACA argument is now, and for the foreseeable future will be academic.

    You guys had all the power you are ever going to have, and got to legislate all on your own, and PPACA was the best you could come up with given the prevailing political winds in the country.

    You had your shot, and failed. The country will give reins to someone else before trusting you to touch health care again.

  3. #153
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I don't need to address it, unless you can explain how after such a hindenbergian second term, anyone on the left will have the political capital to push a more leftist program.
    1: That is an entirely different argument. That is about political strategy, not the soundness of the policy, not whether or not the policy is the correct policy. Don't play rhetorical whack-a-mole with me and move onto a different argument every time I make one.

    2: If you do want to know what the political opportunity is, it's that the arguments for single payer and against ACA have always been there, so we can take it as proof in front of population that honestly doesn't know its ass from a hole in the ground and is open to persuasion. This is especially possible because the Republican party is totally incompetent. The worst thing that could happen to the GOP is for them to be asked to provide their own solution to health care. That will kill them. They are only staying afloat (barely, since the American people hate them) right now by playing the negative role, and fighting everything Obama supposedly does wrong. But if they have to go before the public an explain their own ideas on health care, they'll be as successful as Mitt Romney's presidential run. In a sense, supporters of single payer have time, because the GOP is not yet a credible threat on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The only place your arguments work is in theory.
    And every developed country in the world except the USA. I don't know how to explain something so fundamental to you. When something works on paper, and every where that it is practiced, that is the most compelling evidence you will ever get that something works. You are disregarding both theory and practice. You are disregarding both empiricism and rationalism.

    The only reason it hasn't worked in the USA, is because the USA is the only place that hasn't tried it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    No country with single payer has to pay to be the worlds police man, or shoulders the burden of being the worlds reserve currency.
    And no other singe player country has a state called Texas. You have to explain to me why that would actually keep it from working here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Also, those countries have a level of ethnic homogeneity that makes their populace more willing to have their wealth redistributed.
    Wrong. Canada and Australia both have less ethnic homogeneity than the USA. Possibly France, too, these days. And others I may not know off the top of my head. The diversity of the USA is a little trumped up, a bit of a myth.

    And as for that second part, you're just saying that the policy won't work because Americans won't let the policy work. The same thing could have been said about abolishing slavery. One has to make an effort to change the publics mind. That's politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Most importantly, the last time I checked, the Democrats controlled the WH, Senate, and House when they passed this, and were also enjoying one of the strongest post election honeymoons ever.

    If under those exceedingly advantageous circumstances, where the democrats basically got to write a domestic piece of legislation by themselves, they realized that even then the US public would never be amenable to single payer, I don't see how you clinging to it is a substantive argument.
    I've already explained that. It was unjustified timidity. They could have passed it, and the political results would have actually been better for them. They took the worst of all worlds. Passed an ineffective law that did not spare them any flack, and I said as much would happen in 2009. You seem to be assuming this all works on some dead simple linear scale of extremism and moderation, but it doesn't. Doing something with actual results is the best course of action, and it can allow people like FDR to become near legendary doing totally radical things.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How do you expect the insurance industry to react when single payer is pushed? Of the US public for that matter?

    Health Care is big business in the US, and a lot of people make a lot of money in the industry.

    Intrenched monied interests will never support a program that kills an industry.

    So for a host of reasons, the Single Payer vs ACA argument is now, and for the foreseeable future will be academic.
    Don't you realize that there were health care industries in much of the other countries that implemented single payer, or at least non-profit health care?
    Even fucking Switzerland managed it, and a giant chunk of their economy is health services. Some of it just comes down to have some political balls for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You guys had all the power you are ever going to have, and got to legislate all on your own, and PPACA was the best you could come up with given the prevailing political winds in the country.
    No, it wasn't. The mistake of the Democrats was thinking it was, because for some weird reason, they've been listening to people like you for the past 30 years. Washington and the media are, actually, more right-wing than most of America, but I know you'd never believe that. Not because you have arguments against it (you apparently don't come up with those) but because you except it as an article faith that there is a left-wing conspiracy.

    But here, have this: Tea Party shocker: Even right-wingers become liberals when they turn off Fox News

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You had your shot, and failed. The country will give reins to someone else before trusting you to touch health care again.
    That's exactly what I want. The worst thing that could happen to the GOP is for them to be asked to do something about health care.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #154
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Theory doesn't even enter the picture until you've dealt with political realities.

    Anyway, do you find it surprising that they pushed the enrollment period until after the 2014 midterms.

    Do you think Single Payer is the only way to skin the healthcare cat?

  5. #155
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Theory doesn't even enter the picture until you've dealt with political realities.
    I think you cherry pick when to focus on politics and when to focus on policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Anyway, do you find it surprising that they pushed the enrollment period until after the 2014 midterms.
    Surprising, not really. Kind of odd, yes. This would not be the first time the Democrats have punted something significant into the point after elections, and I've never felt so keen on it, strategically.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do you think Single Payer is the only way to skin the healthcare cat?
    Damn near.

    Some people give two classes of UHC, some give three, to be thorough I'll give four.

    One is like the UK or France, in which the entire thing is run by central government, through and through. This is, in a sense, a single payer, but by being all government it works somewhat differently.

    Canada and Taiwan have the most classically understood "single payer" system, with sort of a monopolized insurer overseen by the government.

    Finland is an odd case, the only one I know of, that has the government run everything like the UK, but it leaves much of the decision of how much to pay in taxes and how much to spend on health care at the district level. It's sort of a decentralized government health care. I don't imagine the USA will ever take up purely government health care (nor does it need to), but if it did, it seems much more viable for it to do it Finland's way rather than UK's way.

    But all of these are sort of single payer in the sense. There has really been only one significant alternative, and that's Bismarck's way of doing it.* The system in Germany, also taken up by Japan and some other countries. Both countries actually have more private practices than the USA. However, they are still quite different from ACA. Both actually do make sure everyone has insurance, and this is partly achieved through having a public option (which, of course, Obama opted out on). It also establishes a concept of basic care, and requires that to be non-profit. And finally, they require all insurers and providers to have a regular summit to agree to some kind of cap on prices. All of those things require a great deal of central government oversight, even if the government does not directly own the health care industry, and all of those things are missing from ACA.

    So, I suppose if you wanted a real UHC system that most resembles ACA as it is, you'd go with Bismarck. I used to advocate that myself, and some more astute posters might have noticed my change on that.

    Why change? Well, the only reason I advocated it at all is because I thought such a system was more agreeable to the USA. But at this point, it seems to me that the whole thing is just do or die. We have to go out on a limb and ram it through, or get nothing done at all, so there's no point in placating convention. We might as well go with the simpler solution, and single payer is definitely simpler than Bismarck's model.

    *Thought the system has been heavily modified since Bismarck first put the idea of a national health care system in place.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #156
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Damn near.
    Then there is no more conversation to have here.

    You wont accept the plausibility of alternatives.

  7. #157
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Then there is no more conversation to have here.

    You wont accept the plausibility of alternatives.
    I came to a conclusion based on information. I've not seen any information to the contrary. The evidence of the superiority of a UHC system is about as solider as an evidence for a policy can get. What am I supposed to do?

    I listed what are, to my knowledge, the viable options. Anything else appears to be settling for less. I need a reason to believe otherwise. I do not see a reason.

    You clearly want to reject this, and you want to say there is another way, but what has you convinced? What have you ever said to convince me? You seem to believe something in the absence of evidence and in the presence of counter-evidence.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #158
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    We are figuring it out.

    Like I've said before I don't have decades of think tank work to rely on like you do.

    From National Affairs

    Conservative Health-Care Reform: A Reality Check

    We will get our shot to make it work.

  9. #159
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    From CBS:

    Older people sign up for California's health exchange; younger people hold back

    Repairs on the HealthCare.gov website continue, but some of the states that built their own health insurance websites are now reporting a surge of interest.
    California's state exchange, Covered California, has run an aggressive advertising campaign

    Their latest numbers show more than 2,000 people a day have been signing up. Almost 80,000 Californians have now picked a plan.

    But that success comes with a potential problem.

    Insurance plans depend on creating pools with many more healthy policy holders (the young) than sick ones (older Americans.) That reduces the risk of losses for insurers and keeps prices affordable.

    But in California, the young, between 18 and 34, make up only 23 percent of those who've signed up. Fifty-six percent are age 45 or older.
    “It's not surprising to me that the early enrollees do tend to be older and perhaps more aware of their health-care problems,” said Marian Mulkey of a non-partisan research group, the California HealthCare Foundation.

    Is she concerned that young people are taking their time to sign up while older people are rushing in?

    “If there was nobody in that category, I'd be worried already,” she said. “But I would expect it to ramp up over time.”

    Others states show a similar trend of the old signing up in much higher numbers than the young. In Kentucky, 57 percent of those enrolled are over the age of 44 and in Connecticut it's 62 percent.

  10. #160
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We are figuring it out.

    Like I've said before I don't have decades of think tank work to rely on like you do.

    From National Affairs

    Conservative Health-Care Reform: A Reality Check

    We will get our shot to make it work.
    I don't believe "I don't know, we'll think of something" warrants your level of confidence.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

Similar Threads

  1. If the inferior function is so bad than what's made of the remaining four functions?
    By Willow Tree in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-18-2016, 07:31 PM
  2. What is so fascinating about gender politics?
    By Ingrid in grids in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-02-2016, 05:58 AM
  3. [ENTJ] ENTJ Ladies . . . what do you see is good/bad about being an ENTJ?
    By Windigo in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 04-09-2012, 09:38 PM
  4. What's so bad about wanting a Union job?
    By miss fortune in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 10-18-2008, 11:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO