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  1. #51
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Right, but the bill passed when Democrats had a majority in the house along with the senate and presidency. The question is, if the use of the house republicans' majority power is so clear cut, why resort to a shutdown?
    Because the other branches of government are likewise empowered to resist the House, necessitating compromise by both parties, the surrender of one party, or (the old favorite) a gentleman's agreement to avoid such situations by not abusing the system in the first place.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    A law with much larger impact than most, passed during a temporary period of one-party government, against the strident wishes of half the country, who are now expected to just bend over and take it, from now into perpetuity? Fuck that.

    The form of democracy you are seeing is the same form of divided government that our constitutional system embodies, ensuring that huge changes can only happen through an enduring national consensus-it was the Democrats who took the oil out of the machine when they passed such huge legislation (without even enough time to fucking read it) without the support of the other party.
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because the other branches of government are likewise empowered to resist the House, necessitating compromise by both parties, the surrender of one party, or (the old favorite) a gentleman's agreement to avoid such situations by not abusing the system in the first place.
    I find this narrative ridiculous.

    The main reason the law was unpopular is because it was such a compromise.

    I'm of the opinion that an imperfect plan well executed is better than a perfect plan executed poorly...and pulling procedural stunts like this shut down fits well into the picture many democrats have been trying to paint for 6 years.

    I resisted the democrat narrative for a while, but moments like this prove them to be right about republic intentions from the start. They cared, from the very beginning, about sabatoge so they can say "I told you so".

    Their team is their party, not their country.

    I was a swing voter once. After this, it will take either a new opposition party or a clear renunciation of the Tea Party for me to vote Republican again.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    A law with much larger impact than most, passed during a temporary period of one-party government, against the strident wishes of half the country, who are now expected to just bend over and take it, from now into perpetuity? Fuck that.
    .
    I don't really have a problem with repealing or amending the law although I do think that would be a tremendously negative precedent. It'd really say to the rest of the world, America cannot pass a bill on healthcare no matter how hard it tries. But even so, if a majority don't like the law, that's the system we've set up, by all means repeal or amend it.

    But to tie the healthcare law to the debt ceiling and funding the government, when the healthcare law continues even during the shutdown and will continue even if America defaults on her debt, just because you only have one house of Congress and didn't win the election, is kind of an asinine and petty strategy, if you ask me. You say it's the same form of divided government our constitutional system embodies, but what it really is is brinkmanship and ransom taken too far.
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  4. #54
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    I live in the Hampton Roads area, which has a high percentage of military, government workers, and government contractors. It's been a rough year for us. First, the furloughs caused a significant portion of the population to lose 8 (give or take) days of work over the course of a couple of months. And now, all of those people are simply out of work indefinitely. Plus, because it's the beginning of a fiscal year, paperwork for various contracts may or may not be properly signed, etc., leaving many contractors without work until things get sorted out by the people that may be furloughed.

    It's not a coincidence that the Republican representatives in the area, Forbes and Rigell, are now breaking with the Republican line and trying to push for a continuing resolution to reopen the government. (http://rigell.house.gov/news/documen...umentID=351981, Forbes I heard about on an NPR report on the way to work.)

    The attitude that I see in this overwhelmingly Republican area (most of the Democrats are in Northern Virginia) is that they hate the Affordable Healthcare Act, but don't find the issue worth losing their income over and want the Republicans to let it go. It's primarily those that hate the AHA *and* aren't having their livelihoods affected by this political gamesmanship that are more prone to have the attitude of stopping this thing through whatever means necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The main reason the law was unpopular is because it was such a compromise.
    Don't forget about the massive amounts of disinformation pushed by the Tea Party and lobbyists, such as the death panels that target grandma. The Republicans did everything they could to make the bill as lousy as possible, which in fairness, succeeded because the Democratic Party is pretty dysfunctional too so they had to make crippling concessions to pass the thing.

    Their team is their party, not their country.
    Just remember, Republicans and Democrats are both made up of people. Well, technically politicians, but they are almost like people. If the tables were turned the Democrats would very likely do something similar.

  5. #55
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that this is phrased as a "government shutdown" when it's just non-essential services that aren't getting funded. And it seems that they truly are non-essential. It's national parks and passports. I guess it sucks for people who work at those agencies, but nobody I know is really affected by any of this. Foodstamps, medicare, non of this stuff is getting cut-off. Mail isn't affected. It's one of the most mellow, low-key crises ever. You'd think it meant we were going to become Ethiopia or something.


    This is why I don't like talking about politics. People don't like it when I detach. I get it, I'm supposed to be outraged that people were playing these kinds of political games. But I'm not. It just looks like theater to me.

    I dunno, maybe I should take this stuff more seriously, but everyone told me that the world was going to end of Dubya got re-elected, and then he did, and the same people telling me that just shrugged and said "oh well, it's not a big deal." Most of the damage that man did happened in his first term.

    Every 4 years, were told that "this is the election that matters" and I'm supposed to think that if the outcome is wrong, it's going to be Mad Max or something. But I can never buy that, because that didn't really happen when Dubya got re-elected.

    I suppose some people might blame the recession on Dubya getting re-elected, but that probably would have happened if John Kerry had been in office, too. Unless someone can point to some specific bill that was passed in those four years, I don't see how you can tie that to Dubya's re-election. I don't think the Democrats would have suddenly enacted measures that would have stopped it from happening... even if they had tried to, they probably wouldn't have been able to. I'd love to know the truth about what caused that mess, but I feel that I'll never get at it since everything I hear about economics seems to be about shoring up some political ideology.

    I don't enjoy the feeling of getting swept up in causes just for getting swept in causes. If I am swept up in something, I'd like to believe it's actually important. I can't do that about a government shutdown. Our government doesn't really work anyway, and I've never heard any sensible solutions to any of it that sound like they would work, or wouldn't be even worse. Maybe I should go in and find a solution, but I'm not sure that I care enough.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #56
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I find it interesting that this is phrased as a "government shutdown" when it's just non-essential services that aren't getting funded. And it seems that they truly are non-essential. It's national parks and passports. I guess it sucks for people who work at those agencies, but nobody I know is really affected by any of this. Foodstamps, medicare, non of this stuff is getting cut-off. Mail isn't affected. It's one of the most mellow, low-key crises ever. You'd think it meant we were going to become Ethiopia or something.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco...program-halts/

  7. #57
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Ok, that is pretty bad. I was just dismissing it as over-the-top histrionics, but it's not. And for someone with a government job, it's pretty shitty.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  8. #58
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    As an outsider, I wonder:
    - Why doesn't Obama just say something like 'I'm the president, the American people voted for me to rule this place, so if you fuckers don't want this fucking bill, I'll just pass it myself!' I mean, the people voted for Obama's plans, so just fucking give them what they voted for!
    - Why isn't there a law that prevents a government shutdown? As an outsider, I must say it doesn't make sense to me and it comes across as really childish. Change the goddamn law! It's ridiculous.
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  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Ok, that is pretty bad. Si was just dismissing it as over-the-top histrionics, but it's not. And for someone with a government job, it's pretty shitty.
    I know plenty of people affected by this. It's not just government workers, but their contractors as well.

    My mom is one of the people furloughed. I have several friends also working engineering contract jobs affected.

    Do you really believe science and engineering functions would fall under "essential"?

    Remember, the vast majority of NASA is shut down too.

    These aren't just kids missing opportunities for part time work. These are people working career track jobs with morgages and beginning families that have now become indefinitely unemployed.

    If they return every one to work in a couple of days, this may be written off as a nuisance, but the Republicans plan to push sham "compromises" till the 17th so that they can add the nation's credit hostage as well. Their strategists are practically saying as much.

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  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Because the other branches of government are likewise empowered to resist the House, necessitating compromise by both parties, the surrender of one party, or (the old favorite) a gentleman's agreement to avoid such situations by not abusing the system in the first place.
    ...How exactly does this excuse or rationalize Republican behavior?

    As best as I can tell, you are affirming that everything worked as the system does, except that a certain group (hint: the Republicans) have perhaps disregarded a gentleman's agreement in pressing a shutdown.

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