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  1. #21
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Thus, any claim that one or the other side is unwilling to compromise is disengenuos. The truth is that, both are willing to compromise, but neither is willing to lose.
    Yes, "you are FORCING me to shoot the hostage by not giving into my demands" is always logically justifiable and the moral high ground. It's always good to enter negotiations on those terms.

    More seriously, rewarding holding the budget (or debt limit) hostage just makes it rewarding to use such tactics in the future.

    Plus, despite having a jaundiced view of the ACA (ObamaCare), only 33 percent of registered voters believe that the health law should be repealed, delayed, or defunded. Granted, that group will only blame the Republicans a little more they blame Obama, but still. So, the representatives causing the government shutdown are a minority of the House, don't reflect the will of a majority of people, are blocking a lawfully passed, Supreme Court upheld law in a way that will damage the economy (and a large number of ordinary people). How is that morally defensible?

    The individual provisions of the ACA are mostly very popular, with the individual mandate being the most unpopular part. Unfortunately, you need the larger pool of folks (in particular, healthy folks) to enable those other provisions (no lifetime limits, can't be denied for pre-existing conditions, etc). It's certainly not an ideal law by any means, but it seems like an incremental improvement over what we had.

    I'm sure it will need to be tuned over time, but it's hardly the end of the world or rampant socialism— there's not even a single payer option, which I would have liked. Making people contribute to their health insurance (or, effectively, giving people a tax break if they do) is not the end of the free world.

  2. #22
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    The ACA polls about as well as a ripened dog turd.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    My friend in the Army lost his job working at McDonalds because they cut his hours as a direct result of the new healthcare plan (Obamacare) being set by the government. The company has to afford the plan and the only way they could do it was to find ways to not pay people as much. So he joined the army since he could no longer be able to sustain himself as a direct result.

    And I don't trust any of you that ignore these realities and pretend that this is going to be a good thing. And I especially don't trust Jennifer when she pretends people shouldn't use every ability they have to stop something that has hurt them and is going to hurt them (or other people). You all could agree to torture me and that doesn't mean it's going to be settled for me; I would do everything I could to stop you. It would never be settled until I agreed with it or was killed. And government is no exception to this rule. Human nature isn't that complicated. If Obamacare was as good as it sounds, there wouldn't be so much opposition. If it truly saved money, there would be no problem with it, but yet people have been screwed by it, people who aren't by any means considered rich. And that opposition won't magically go away, even if this is passed. The problems that you all ignore will not just magically go away. They will become worse because they are not being dealt with.

    Quote Originally Posted by taylord View Post
    Who's to blame, if anyone, if the government shuts down at the end of the month?
    Those that point fingers instead of dealing with the actual problems underlying the shutdown.

  4. #24
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    What if the gov't shut down and no one noticed?

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That it's de facto whatever is irrelevant.
    De facto pretty much means relevant in the fundamentally relevant way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The reason across the decades is because you can compromise on how much to grow the government or how much to decrease the government, but it's near impossible to compromise between whether you grow or decrease the government. One side will necessarily lose.

    Thus, any claim that one or the other side is unwilling to compromise is disengenuos. The truth is that, both are willing to compromise, but neither is willing to lose.
    I cannot understand why growing or shrinking the government should be considered worthwhile goals in and of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    My friend in the Army lost his job working at McDonalds because they cut his hours as a direct result of the new healthcare plan (Obamacare) being set by the government. The company has to afford the plan and the only way they could do it was to find ways to not pay people as much. So he joined the army since he could no longer be able to sustain himself as a direct result.
    That's what they tell you. That doesn't mean it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    And I don't trust any of you that ignore these realities and pretend that this is going to be a good thing. And I especially don't trust Jennifer when she pretends people shouldn't use every ability they have to stop something that has hurt them and is going to hurt them (or other people). You all could agree to torture me and that doesn't mean it's going to be settled for me; I would do everything I could to stop you. It would never be settled until I agreed with it or was killed. And government is no exception to this rule. Human nature isn't that complicated. If Obamacare was as good as it sounds, there wouldn't be so much opposition.
    This is horrible reasoning. There was a time not all that long ago when a vast majority of Americans opposed mixed race marriages. Your logic is that there must have been good reason to oppose it then.

    And exactly how much opposition is enough to qualify? Would to include the opposition to the abolition of slavery back in the day?

    Sometimes the majority is actually wrong, which is a reason for having a representative democratic republic. That being said, as has already been pointed out, a majority of Americans also oppose repealing ACA, so that must mean it's a good idea, right?

    Human nature is very complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    If it truly saved money, there would be no problem with it, but yet people have been screwed by it, people who aren't by any means considered rich.
    From cutting taxes to continuing the war on drugs, we've seen popular and expert opinion alike both supports things that increase costs and oppose things that lower costs.

    And I'm fascinated by just how many people have been allegedly screwed by a law that still hasn't gone into effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    And that opposition won't magically go away, even if this is passed. The problems that you all ignore will not just magically go away. They will become worse because they are not being dealt with.
    As hard as it may be for you to believe, the point to ACA is to deal with certain problems. It's insufficient in my opinion because it neither sets controlled health care prices nor standardized provider(s), but it was made into such a half-assed bill precisely to placate the Republicans (and some conservative Democrats) who are making a big deal of the plan even as it exists now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Those that point fingers instead of dealing with the actual problems underlying the shutdown.

    And who would that be, specifically?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's what they tell you. That doesn't mean it's true.
    Doesn't mean it's not true, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And I'm fascinated by just how many people have been allegedly screwed by a law that still hasn't gone into effect.
    You shouldn't be.

    Expectation of an oncoming law, especially one as major as this, will change behavior prior to its going into effect.

    I just talked with my sister over the weekend, and, at her new job, they will not bring her on for more than 30 hours because otherwise they would have to offer her health insurance, due to the ACA. Coincidentally, this is one of my biggest problems with the ACA. It leads to higher unemployment and underemployment than would exist without it. At least in the short-to-medium term. And to pass legislation that would have such an effect, in the worst economic environment since the Great Depression, is idiotic.

  7. #27
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    COme on USA you can do it!

    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  8. #28
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    TBH I am so wrapped up in exams/assignments that I didn't even realize this was a thing until yesterday
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #29
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What if the gov't shut down and no one noticed?
    You say that when it's clear that Jennifer will suddenly not be paid since she'll be furloughed, and Jennifer is hardly alone in that. Really? I think there are 800,000 people who work for the government who will be furloughed, plus those who depend on government services who will notice right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    [A McDonald's franchise laying people off because of ObamaCare.]
    That's what they tell you. That doesn't mean it's true.
    More specifically, the number of part time jobs goes way up during a recession (and initial parts of a recovery, especially one as tepid as ours)... that's sadly typical. There are more people who are willing to work part time (since they can't find full time jobs), and it's cheaper to hire them. You can see a spike every time in the chart where there's a gray recession bar.

    So, the percentage of people working part time for economic reasons:



    Where you'll note that percentage is falling since 2009... plus, looks like forced part time work (for economic reasons) peeked right before Obama care was passed. Also note:



    Where recently jobs just over the ACA limit are keeping up with jobs just under (although I'd rather have a seasonably adjusted chart, since summer jobs can be distorting).

    None of this makes things suck any less for the friend of @Little_Sticks, but again... it seems the data don't (yet) support companies dumping lots of people because of ObamaCare, especially since the employer provision has been delayed a year (not that there aren't other provisions that could have an effect).

  10. #30
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    They are negotiating a stop gap funding bill now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Really?
    Yea really.

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