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  1. #141
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Both of you pretty much agree that this is just a step towards a single-payer system and given that it's a step where the supporters of said single-payer system are screaming "free-market" all along the way it's not melodramatic at all to call such a program insidious. Here, whether the bill is insidious is not a matter of the strategy employed, but the outcome.
    I'm not sure what your point is here. The merits of a bill/law are independent of the means used to pass it. The actual benefits and problems can be predicted only with limited accuracy before implementation. If opponents of ACA are so certain it will fail, rather than squandering resources fighting over it, they should just let it fall on its face, then have the perfect case for repeal or serious overhaul. Now, it's all speculation and naysaying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Btw, here's some good evidence moving forward that our federal government really, really, really sucks at administering programs this large and shouldn't be charged with administering a single-payer system.
    I'm not sure how many elderly folks you know, but I know many, and they all are happy to have Medicare to rely on in their old age. The main problem here is that some providers won't take Medicare patients any more because they can make more money off privately insured people, since Medicare limits reimbursements. This problem would go away were everyone covered by a Medicare-like system. That being said, Medicare itself is acknowledged to need some significant updating in how providers are reimbursed, shifting the focus from procedures to outcomes. I'm not sure if the ACA takes this on at all, but most stakeholders agree it needs to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    "It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones."
    Just like it's more important to convict the guilty than to acquit the innocent? A serious contrast in moral perspectives, I would agree.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #142
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Both of you pretty much agree that this is just a step towards a single-payer system and given that it's a step where the supporters of said single-payer system are screaming "free-market" all along the way it's not melodramatic at all to call such a program insidious. Here, whether the bill is insidious is not a matter of the strategy employed, but the outcome.
    People have been pushing for single payer back since "Hillary care". And one thing I liked about her more than Obama during the primaries is that she said she still favored such a thing. I don't believe that everyone (even Obama himself) was necessarily aiming for a single-payer, but there are plenty who have been all along, and it is a natural progression. There isn't much of a good reason to stop at where ACA is. It's like being half-way across a street.

    So I don't think it's insidious in that I don't think most of the people who want single payer have been hiding that, and of course it's also not insidious in that a single payer system will only be good news for this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Btw, here's some good evidence moving forward that our federal government really, really, really sucks at administering programs this large and shouldn't be charged with administering a single-payer system.

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinion...-website-cost/
    Because of the every recurring superiority of the health care systems practiced by other countries, I wonder why you think the USA would be bad at implementing such a program in a way that no other country is. Any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Most of the congress supporting the defunding of the ACA are well supported by their constituents. This is why we have a congress and not just a demagogue in chief.
    Yeah, and there's not enough of them to pass a law about it, so were are back to square one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I suppose this depends on whether or not you agree with Calvin Coolidge and I know you don't.

    "It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones."
    In theory you could use this tactic to pressure the majority party and president to pass a good bill. You could use it for anything. It would be asinine either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    This makes no sense. Of course any system is going to require a level of civility beyond the laws themselves to function. Isn't that exactly what you're demanding from the republicans? It is just a matter of difference of when and where the uncivil behavior began.
    Let's go over this again.

    Sufficient votes to pass bill in house and senate, even if lacked Republican votes. President who signs it. Supreme court that upholds it. Two election cycles that do not give enough power to people who would overturn the law. Three years have passed.

    According to Republicans, the sin of the Democrats is passing and supporting the law within those circumstances. Based on the idea that it is a sin, they now right it be shutting down the government, and it looks like putting the debt ceiling on line is down the road.

    Do you not see how the Republicans are taking more extraordinary means toward their political agenda than Democrats? Democrats basically did what one officially does within the government. Republicans, on the presumption that what the Democrats did was wrong (already a stretch) are intentionally creating dysfunction.

    You might notice that very frequent words applied to this situation are ransom and blackmail. I don't see how anyone could have applied those words to the passing of ACA. The Democrats never had to threaten anyone with actual damage to get what they want, and it wasn't against any official process in the first place. That difference is of more practical importance than mere civility.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #143
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    On the topic of polls again, they show even half of Republicans are opposed to the shutdown, with about 75% of the general population opposed.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #144
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So I don't think it's insidious in that I don't think most of the people who want single payer have been hiding that, and of course it's also not insidious in that a single payer system will only be good news for this country.
    Single-payer supporters haven't been hiding that, they have sacrificed it in the name of compromise, something that has become a dirty word among Republicans. They want to paint the ACA as some extreme liberal imposition, when it is not. It is this unhappy middle ground between single-payer and what we have now. But ACA supporters understand that in compromise, you don't get everything you want. Someone needs to teach this to Senator Cruz and his cronies. They probably missed out on kindergarten way back.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I wouldn't say I advocate the opposite of the highlighted, but I'm definitely for keeping private lives private. That means hands off by government AND corporations. The economy should stay private as much as possible, though I generally think it less possible than most. I see the role of government primarily in keeping the playing field as level as possible, though, which means a significant function is preventing unfairness by any other sector, be it private or just other levels of government. Social institutions deserve protection as long as they contribute to the public good and do not serve as a limitation on individual rights/freedom.
    The problem is that even the most basic competition policies are now attacked as "socialism" or "big government" as the UK labour party's suggestion of price regulation in the energy sector which has become an oligopoly of co-operating providers has been.

    Consumer sovereignty is a myth but it remains a popular recourse for anyone who resists government action in the economy.

    Realistically, I favour a mixed economy, of both public and private sectors and variety in commerce, industry and service sectors. I dont believe that has anything what so ever to do with socialism either, it just makes sense and was once, in the shape of institutional economics, was the basic or reset position of conservatives. I actually think a limited market economy would be fine, there are things which the marketplace does very well, for good economic reasons, like cans of coca cola, but a lot of the much more serious things, energy, utilities, transport on a national and international scale, they really cant be left to private interests and in practice are not. Although in the UK key sectors of the economy, housing, energy, utilities (at least water) have been marked by serious market failures largely as a consequence of the inability or unwillingness of any government to take on the vested interests (the energy companies threatened the labour government, and indirectly the public, with black outs should their competition policies be implemented).

    There's also the problem created by permitting your economy, and society by extention, to become dominated by financial sectors or services, they become the source of employment for the rich, they become a political constituency and policies are adopted to protect the class of small and shrinking legacies rather than promote any real productivity and competitiveness on an international scale. Its the basic outcome of out sourcing, politically motivated attacks on unionised labour and working people in general which has been en vogue with both the right and the left to a greater or lesser extent since the eighties.

  6. #146

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    Obama was on the radio earlier and it sounds like the bastards are on the run!

  7. #147
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Consumer sovereignty is a myth but it remains a popular recourse for anyone who resists government action in the economy.
    I recall J.K Galbraith had said consumer sovereignty was a myth, and I recall Milton Friedman responding with a critique in which he attacked Galbraith's suggestions that there shouldn't be consumer sovereignty. It sort of made me want to face palm. Saying you are against something and saying something literally does not exist are two very crucially different things.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I recall J.K Galbraith had said consumer sovereignty was a myth, and I recall Milton Friedman responding with a critique in which he attacked Galbraith's suggestions that there shouldn't be consumer sovereignty. It sort of made me want to face palm. Saying you are against something and saying something literally does not exist are two very crucially different things.
    Well that's just in the great polemical tradition of responding to what you imagined your opponent would say or should say, by your own lights, rather than what they did say.

    The right wing does that all the time and sometimes they've done it well enough and for long enough that they've managed to frame the debate and most people, including their opposition, take their word for objective fact.

  9. #149
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Democrats + 6.3 over Republicans.

    This whole thing is going so well for Republicans.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #150

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