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  1. #131
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well the plan generally is about privatising the economy and nationalising private life, unless you're in the fortune five hundred, then all bets are off.

    I'm on for a balanced approach to regulating social life, if it involves conserving and protecting social institutions, but I'm also on for fiscal regulation too.

    Edit: I dont know how you can have one without the other to be truthful.
    I wouldn't say I advocate the opposite of the highlighted, but I'm definitely for keeping private lives private. That means hands off by government AND corporations. The economy should stay private as much as possible, though I generally think it less possible than most. I see the role of government primarily in keeping the playing field as level as possible, though, which means a significant function is preventing unfairness by any other sector, be it private or just other levels of government. Social institutions deserve protection as long as they contribute to the public good and do not serve as a limitation on individual rights/freedom.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #132
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Just like it was a choice to pass the ACA on a strait party line vote via the reconciliation process.

    All other transformational domestic programs had bipartisan buy in when it came time to vote (see medicare, social security etc..)
    I'd be not in the least bit surprised if Republicans would call any bill "transformational domestic programs" to justify this action.

    I don't think there's symmetry between the Democratic decision to pass the bill and the Republican decision to shut the government down.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #133
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'd be not in the least bit surprised if Republicans would call any bill "transformational domestic programs" to justify this action.

    I don't think there's symmetry between the Democratic decision to pass the bill and the Republican decision to shut the government down.
    Correct. The symmetric action from the Republicans against ACA would be to repeal it directly. Since they cannot muster support for that, they resort to these hostage tactics. I suppose that makes them political terrorists.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #134
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The other day I saw a Republican representative call ACA "one of the most insidious laws ever created by man"

    The melodrama is almost beyond words.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #135
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Correct. The symmetric action from the Republicans against ACA would be to repeal it directly. Since they cannot muster support for that, they resort to these hostage tactics. I suppose that makes them political terrorists.
    Baloney. This is exactly why the founders gave them the power of the purse. Madison and others meant to give them a big stick. They knew this would happen. Although, I'm not sure they anticipated the executive branch twisting the knife the way they have.

    Well, on second thought maybe he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison
    But I go on this great republican principle, that the people will have virtue and intelligence to select men of virtue and wisdom. Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks--no form of government can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men. So that we do not depend on their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The other day I saw a Republican representative call ACA "one of the most insidious laws ever created by man"

    The melodrama is almost beyond words.
    Do you think the ACA will still be functioning in 10 or 15 years? Do you think even Obama wants the ACA to be here in 10 or 15 years himself?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #136
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Do you think the ACA will still be functioning in 10 or 15 years?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Do you think even Obama wants the ACA to be here in 10 or 15 years himself?
    I suspect he hopes by then it will have evolved into a true single-payer system. So do I. ACA is at best a stop-gap measure.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #137
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    When is the government gonna stop throwing a temper tantrum?

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'd be not in the least bit surprised if Republicans would call any bill "transformational domestic programs" to justify this action.

    I don't think there's symmetry between the Democratic decision to pass the bill and the Republican decision to shut the government down.
    You have to build buy in to pass large pieces of domestic legislation.

    Not doing so has been the hallmark of this administration, even among his own party Obama has done a poor job of cultivating relationships with congress and has completely lacked any kind of diplomacy when dealing with the minority party unlike say LBJ who was a master of getting people together and brokering deals.

    Obama got elected to run America, not supplant his view of what America should be then tell the people who voted for him that their votes equal a stem to stern mandate to implement that vision.

    It's been policy overreach from the get go.

  9. #139
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Baloney. This is exactly why the founders gave them the power of the purse. Madison and others meant to give them a big stick. They knew this would happen. Although, I'm not sure they anticipated the executive branch twisting the knife the way they have.

    Well, on second thought maybe he did.
    People hate congress, and yet its incumbency rate is extremely high. Something isn't working the way Madison had in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Do you think the ACA will still be functioning in 10 or 15 years? Do you think even Obama wants the ACA to be here in 10 or 15 years himself?
    Yes, I imagine it's quite possible that ACA will still be functioning in 10 to 15 years, if Republicans don't manage to fuck it up, but to exercise enough power to prevent any further developments. If Republicans can't prevent any further developments, then I hope by then it will have upgraded to a fuller health care system like the kind we see in other developed nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You have to build buy in to pass large pieces of domestic legislation.

    Not doing so has been the hallmark of this administration, even among his own party Obama has done a poor job of cultivating relationships with congress and has completely lacked any kind of diplomacy when dealing with the minority party unlike say LBJ who was a master of getting people together and brokering deals.

    Obama got elected to run America, not supplant his view of what America should be then tell the people who voted for him that their votes equal a stem to stern mandate to implement that vision.

    It's been policy overreach from the get go.
    Voters have not reacted to ACA in away that could amount to its repeal. You can talk all you want about Democrats passing a bill without Republican support, Republicans are now trying to achieve something they cannot do even with complete solidarity amongst their own party.

    As far as checks and balances are concerned, I don't think a system which has popular elections, puts laws to a vote amongst multiple legislative bodies, has an executive which may sign or veto that law, and a court to validate the constitutionality of that law, but a house that can shutdown the government and demand they get the opposite of the ruling of all of those things, makes a very good system. It's a bad system in the way it mitigates an elaborate structure of governing institutions, and it's a bad system in that it would do great collateral damage to the country if it became commonplace.

    And all this crap about needing to build consensus is an unwritten rule on top of the written rules. If the founding fathers made such a beautiful system of government, I don't know why you can't be satisfied with its operation and have to add a bunch more unwritten rules on top of it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #140
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I suspect he hopes by then it will have evolved into a true single-payer system. So do I. ACA is at best a stop-gap measure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan
    If Republicans can't prevent any further developments, then I hope by then it will have upgraded to a fuller health care system like the kind we see in other developed nations.
    Both of you pretty much agree that this is just a step towards a single-payer system and given that it's a step where the supporters of said single-payer system are screaming "free-market" all along the way it's not melodramatic at all to call such a program insidious. Here, whether the bill is insidious is not a matter of the strategy employed, but the outcome.

    Btw, here's some good evidence moving forward that our federal government really, really, really sucks at administering programs this large and shouldn't be charged with administering a single-payer system.

    We paid over $500 million for the Obamacare sites and all we got was this lousy 404

    It’s been one full week since the flagship technology portion of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) went live. And since that time, the befuddled beast that is Healthcare.gov has shutdown, crapped out, stalled, and mis-loaded so consistently that its track record for failure is challenged only by Congress.
    The site itself, which apparently underwent major code renovations over the weekend, still rejects user logins, fails to load drop-down menus and other crucial components for users that successfully gain entrance, and otherwise prevents uninsured Americans in the 36 states it serves from purchasing healthcare at competitive rates – Healthcare.gov’s primary purpose. The site is so busted that, as of a couple days ago, the number of people that successfully purchased healthcare through it was in the “single digits,” according to the Washington Post.

    ...

    Given the complicated nature of federal contracts, it’s difficult to make a direct comparison between the cost to develop Healthcare.gov and the amount of money spent building private online businesses. But for the sake of putting the monstrous amount of money into perspective, here are a few figures to chew on: Facebook, which received its first investment in June 2004, operated for a full six years before surpassing the $500 million mark in June 2010. Twitter, created in 2006, managed to get by with only $360.17 million in total funding until a $400 million boost in 2011. Instagram ginned up just $57.5 million in funding before Facebook bought it for (a staggering) $1 billion last year. And LinkedIn and Spotify, meanwhile, have only raised, respectively, $200 million and $288 million.

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinion...-website-cost/

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    People hate congress, and yet its incumbency rate is extremely high. Something isn't working the way Madison had in mind.
    Most of the congress supporting the defunding of the ACA are well supported by their constituents. This is why we have a congress and not just a demagogue in chief.


    As far as checks and balances are concerned, I don't think a system which has popular elections, puts laws to a vote amongst multiple legislative bodies, has an executive which may sign or veto that law, and a court to validate the constitutionality of that law, but a house that can shutdown the government and demand they get the opposite of the ruling of all of those things, makes a very good system. It's a bad system in the way it mitigates an elaborate structure of governing institutions, and it's a bad system in that it would do great collateral damage to the country if it became commonplace.
    I suppose this depends on whether or not you agree with Calvin Coolidge and I know you don't.

    "It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones."

    And all this crap about needing to build consensus is an unwritten rule on top of the written rules. If the founding fathers made such a beautiful system of government, I don't know why you can't be satisfied with its operation and have to add a bunch more unwritten rules on top of it.
    This makes no sense. Of course any system is going to require a level of civility beyond the laws themselves to function. Isn't that exactly what you're demanding from the republicans? It is just a matter of difference of when and where the uncivil behavior began.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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