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  1. #121
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    As to the comment, it's an idea that came about after the surprising Tea Party support that the Virginian ultrasound law received. If you recall, the original bill forced women to get a transvaginal ultrasound, but that was changed to an abdominal ultrasound after negative national press. The fact that the Tea Party would support the government forcing women to get a transvaginal ultrasound made me realize that they aren't opposed to larger government, they are opposed to the current government being larger. In fact, when it comes to their own values being enforced, they are fine with larger government to accomplish that.
    The factions arguing for "less government" usually mean less government regulation of business/corporations, not less government regulation of the individual. They are quite happy for government to tell people whom they can marry, when/whether to have children, what they can drink/smoke, and to monitor everything else they do. Unless, of course, it involves guns.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #122
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    The fact that the Tea Party would support the government forcing women to get a transvaginal ultrasound made me realize that they aren't opposed to larger government, they are opposed to the current government being larger. In fact, when it comes to their own values being enforced, they are fine with larger government to accomplish that.
    Well, originally, the "Tea Party" movement started as a smaller-government movement, but was over time taken into the hands of plain-old disgruntled conservatives--which of course have overlap, but also stress different points of interest. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter much what it was originally intended to be, since we are dealing with its present form, but that is an explanation of the theme of "smaller government".
    Now, combine that with the fact that there are huge areas of the South that are still feeling negative emotions about the Civil War, and it makes sense why they wish that this government, one they never wanted, to be as small as possible. Their hatred towards the government is particularly intense, and goes well beyond any single policy.
    Being also raised and living down South, I think that's a little misleading, though partially right. The general feeling where I've lived seems to be more of a cultural awareness that social norms/culture are different here than in other parts of the country, and that's the cause of suspicion of other groups, such as Northeasterners or West-coasters, and their ability to sympathize with or respect Southern concerns (for better or worse). Usually not a direct, conscious thought of the loss of the Civil War. (Slightly )
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #123
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No, some may consider it the lesser of two evils, but none would be thrilled over the damage that would do to the country, though I doubt it would come to that, and I doubt that Obama will continue to ignore polls showing that the public, while in opposition to the shutdown, is about equally in opposition to his refusal to negotiate with the House Republicans or accept stopgap measures.
    Part of the problem here is that both sides are convinced they are “winning” in the polls. I doubt it will come to a default this time, either, although I’m of the opinion that it will not be because of the Tea Party or the Democrats relenting. Our fate lies in Boehner.

    Democrats are saying that they initially did negotiate when they met the Republican's demand of a 988 billion budget and a CR. Either that's a lie, or Republicans are completely ignoring that concession, as if it doesn't exist, so they can focus on Obamacare.

    First of all, the goal is limited government more than smaller government, and in their eyes, they are acting to gradually protect the rights of the unborn, and fundamental rights protection is considered to be within the purview of limited government-they are not being hypocritical in this regard
    Thanks for the explanation of the nuance at play here. (I’ll take this opportunity to not get into a debate about individual rights with abortion, and just acknowledge the nuance in perspective.) It just seems that increasing the role of limited government eventually becomes a desire for larger government, over time.

    **In a nutshell, most Southerners with Confederate flags on their trucks (not that they and the Tea Party are one and the same, but your explanation seems to assume so) are proud of their regional identity and cultural heritage and of their ancestors for defending their communities from an invading army, but are also glad that the South lost the Civil War-they are not dormant secessionist who want the country to disintegrate out of spite, which is pretty much what I read your post to imply, and if I read correctly, is as prejudicial and offensive as someone believing that black people hate America and want it to fail as revenge for past racial injustices.
    Some of the things I heard when the government was threatening gun regulations play a role in my assessment of the current situation, although I wasn't trying to state that that this applies to all of the South. There were plenty of people that fought or disagreed with the secessionist partitions, or expressed their disagreement with gun regulation in less extreme fashion.

    What throws me off is that there is just a level and depth of anger I see that I can't entirely attribute to policy alone. Not with everyone, but certainly pockets that are frequently represented by Tea Party members, both in the South and the North.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The factions arguing for "less government" usually mean less government regulation of business/corporations, not less government regulation of the individual.
    This is an interesting distinction as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Being also raised and living down South, I think that's a little misleading, though partially right. The general feeling where I've lived seems to be more of a cultural awareness that social norms/culture are different here than in other parts of the country, and that's the cause of suspicion of other groups, such as Northeasterners or West-coasters, and their ability to sympathize with or respect Southern concerns (for better or worse). Usually not a direct, conscious thought of the loss of the Civil War. (Slightly )
    This makes sense – I appreciate the explanation. I’m southern enough to see the mistrust, but not quite southern enough to get the full understanding of the why. Plus, there are definitely pockets of the north that don’t look highly on the south, to put it nicely.

    In this regard, I actually think our government is a mirror of our country, only magnified x100.

  4. #124
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Just to keep these rolling.

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  5. #125
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Just to keep these rolling.

    It is a sad time in which common sense appears so extraordinary.

  6. #126
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I see your Sen. Warren and raise you JAMES MADISON.

    Federalist No. 58

    The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose, the supplies requisite for the support of government. They, in a word, hold the purse that powerful instrument by which we behold, in the history of the British Constitution, an infant and humble representation of the people gradually enlarging the sphere of its activity and importance, and finally reducing, as far as it seems to have wished, all the overgrown prerogatives of the other branches of the government. This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect every just and salutary measure.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wonder were will be the next global locus of power?

    Its clear that political elites in Washington do not want the US to perform that role any longer, I thought that it was an ideological mire and they simply hadnt factored that into it before now, you know that their domestic battle with the enemy of their utopian plans was upper most in their minds but I'm beginning to think that's not even the case any longer.

    So the question remains what is going to replace Pax Americana in the way that it replaced Pax Britannia?

    I dont believe that there is a Pax Europa that's for sure, Europe has taken a battering from Anglo-American economic warfare, economic fraud and incongruence in the fiscal, social and economic policies of member states and it hasnt any hard power, the Russian aggression in Georgia and continuing threats to create energy crisis in Europe have more than proven that.

    The very earliest signs that Europe was preparing for a post-American world with murmurings of the substitution of Euros for American Dollars in oil trading and petro-dollars where totally derailed and destroyed by the Gulf War and Bush-Blair foreign policies right up to and including the Arab spring. So I'm left thinking that the US doesnt want to act as it has to date, or at least a sizeable and significant political faction in Washington doesnt want it or doesnt care, but the US deep state has done everything to sabotage any alternative or adjustment globally.
    From what I understand the whole world faces the prospect of near terminal regression (depending on its choices) over the course of the century. I would put my money on "Pax Zhongguo" for our beloved Far Eastern brethren from 2020 to 2030 or 2040, followed by "Pax India" or "Pax Brazil" for another five or ten years. If you're lucky you may see an African union dominance (led by one or two African nations in particular) for another five or ten years. However all the above would be in a world which is declining in both power and hegemony with the mentioned nations merely being the place having the most power through suffering a slower decline.

    I doubt (outside of some miracle) we will be seeing sixty years of global strength and hegemony any more. Maybe we won't even be seeing two or three decades of it any more.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The factions arguing for "less government" usually mean less government regulation of business/corporations, not less government regulation of the individual. They are quite happy for government to tell people whom they can marry, when/whether to have children, what they can drink/smoke, and to monitor everything else they do. Unless, of course, it involves guns.
    Well the plan generally is about privatising the economy and nationalising private life, unless you're in the fortune five hundred, then all bets are off.

    I'm on for a balanced approach to regulating social life, if it involves conserving and protecting social institutions, but I'm also on for fiscal regulation too.

    Edit: I dont know how you can have one without the other to be truthful.

  9. #129
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I see your Sen. Warren and raise you JAMES MADISON.
    Warren is saying that the shutdown was a choice, the Republicans and the Republicans alone made the choose to do it, and on account of various consequences it is a bad choice.

    I do not see how Madison's words here are a response to anything she did.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Warren is saying that the shutdown was a choice, the Republicans and the Republicans alone made the choose to do it, and on account of various consequences it is a bad choice.

    I do not see how Madison's words here are a response to anything she did.
    Just like it was a choice to pass the ACA on a strait party line vote via the reconciliation process.

    All other transformational domestic programs had bipartisan buy in when it came time to vote (see medicare, social security etc..)

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