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  1. #111
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Considering that half the Tea Party is in the South, I suspect that by and large they would be more than happy to let the Union's government default and fail.
    .....please explain that comment.

  2. #112
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Wow. I'm still laughing at you suggesting that the Republicans honor "gentleman's agreements" and insinuating that 'pubs never play dirty pool (without me even needing to address this particular situation, which in my view is not nearly as clear-cut as you seem to believe).

    Since I've been of voting age, it's been clear to me which party is the more cutthroat of the two, although that can of course always change. And now we've got the uncompromising Tea Party faction involved.
    I never insinuated the Republicans never play dirty, I said that it was the Democrats who broke a precedent that was longstanding for just this sort of reason-shutdowns have occurred for lesser reasons where political opponents had less to lose by giving in (how many times did it happen during Reagan's Presidency?), but long-term self-interest incentivized politicians not to cross that line for the entire modern history of the United States, until passage of Obamacare.

    We'll have to agree to disagree about that, I guess.

  3. #113
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    This has been interesting but forgive me for asking: if the government did default would the shutdown automatically be resolved? Or would it remain closed down even if the country was crashing and burning?

  4. #114
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Considering that half the Tea Party is in the South, I suspect that by and large they would be more than happy to let the Union's government default and fail.
    Well, its not exactly 1863 anymore...

    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    That implies you believe it is the Republicans who are to blame?
    Who else is shutting down the government?

    There won't be a 'shutdown'.
    The prophet hath spoken.

  5. #115
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    I think what we're seeing play out is something far more serious than the media or most pundits seem to be letting on. This crisis is going to drag on for months, and very likely we're going to default on our debt. Once the other side threatens to do something like default, it's only a matter of time before both sides don't blink and it finally happens. And I think this is the time that's going to happen.

    There's just no way I can see a resolution to the underlying conflict. Republicans know this is their last ditch effort to destroy Obamacare and they're not going to squander the moment. They are either going to get concessions or they are going to go all the way. On the other side the Democrats are not going to bend one inch from seeing a bill they spent so much political capital on from becoming a reality, and they are very united in this goal. We're almost five days in and we're still just talking about who's to blame for what happened. I don't see an end in sight, this will be very protracted and cost the country dearly I'm afraid.
    "In Heaven, everything is fine." - The Lady in the Radiator

  6. #116
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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  7. #117
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    .....please explain that comment.
    As a quick question - do you believe that the Tea Party would be happy to let the government default over Obamacare?

    As to the comment, it's an idea that came about after the surprising Tea Party support that the Virginian ultrasound law received. If you recall, the original bill forced women to get a transvaginal ultrasound, but that was changed to an abdominal ultrasound after negative national press. The fact that the Tea Party would support the government forcing women to get a transvaginal ultrasound made me realize that they aren't opposed to larger government, they are opposed to the current government being larger. In fact, when it comes to their own values being enforced, they are fine with larger government to accomplish that.

    Now, combine that with the fact that there are huge areas of the South that are still feeling negative emotions about the Civil War, and it makes sense why they wish that this government, one they never wanted, to be as small as possible. Their hatred towards the government is particularly intense, and goes well beyond any single policy.

    One caveat is that I'm more familiar with the southern aspect of the Tea Party movement. I do have family in Pennsylvania and their passionate, negative emotions come from a different source, although the intensity of the negativity is similar.

  8. #118
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    As a quick question - do you believe that the Tea Party would be happy to let the government default over Obamacare?

    As to the comment
    No, some may consider it the lesser of two evils, but none would be thrilled over the damage that would do to the country, though I doubt it would come to that, and I doubt that Obama will continue to ignore polls showing that the public, while in opposition to the shutdown, is about equally in opposition to his refusal to negotiate with the House Republicans or accept stopgap measures.

    First of all, the goal is limited government more than smaller government, and in their eyes, they are acting to gradually protect the rights of the unborn, and fundamental rights protection is considered to be within the purview of limited government-they are not being hypocritical in this regard, and it frankly wouldn't mean that they want bigger government in general even if this issue were considered a categorical deviation from their stated aims, as any reasonably large political movement is going to have some amount of inconsistency in the pursuit of broad aims. More importantly, Southerners in general are (very slightly) more patriotic than other Americans*, and understandably** mixed emotions about the Civil War do not affect current attitudes about the Union, especially not among those within a movement where patriotism is a glorified virtue.

    I, too, am most familiar with the Southern Tea Party elements, and I doubt their motivation is any different from that of your Pennsylvania relatives, assuming they are motivated by support for limited government, federalism, and reduced taxes/spending/regulations. If they were a little more pragmatic and less credulous toward stupid conspiracy theories (just like many Democrats during the Bush years), I would probably join them.

    *
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/163361/proud-american.aspx

    **In a nutshell, most Southerners with Confederate flags on their trucks (not that they and the Tea Party are one and the same, but your explanation seems to assume so) are proud of their regional identity and cultural heritage and of their ancestors for defending their communities from an invading army, but are also glad that the South lost the Civil War-they are not dormant secessionist who want the country to disintegrate out of spite, which is pretty much what I read your post to imply, and if I read correctly, is as prejudicial and offensive as someone believing that black people hate America and want it to fail as revenge for past racial injustices.

  9. #119
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    Twelve days left to default. Let us hope Congress raises the debt ceiling in time. Tick Tock. Tick Tock.

  10. #120

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    I wonder were will be the next global locus of power?

    Its clear that political elites in Washington do not want the US to perform that role any longer, I thought that it was an ideological mire and they simply hadnt factored that into it before now, you know that their domestic battle with the enemy of their utopian plans was upper most in their minds but I'm beginning to think that's not even the case any longer.

    So the question remains what is going to replace Pax Americana in the way that it replaced Pax Britannia?

    I dont believe that there is a Pax Europa that's for sure, Europe has taken a battering from Anglo-American economic warfare, economic fraud and incongruence in the fiscal, social and economic policies of member states and it hasnt any hard power, the Russian aggression in Georgia and continuing threats to create energy crisis in Europe have more than proven that.

    The very earliest signs that Europe was preparing for a post-American world with murmurings of the substitution of Euros for American Dollars in oil trading and petro-dollars where totally derailed and destroyed by the Gulf War and Bush-Blair foreign policies right up to and including the Arab spring. So I'm left thinking that the US doesnt want to act as it has to date, or at least a sizeable and significant political faction in Washington doesnt want it or doesnt care, but the US deep state has done everything to sabotage any alternative or adjustment globally.

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