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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I was glad to see news that Boehner has said he won't let a default happen, although I wish he'd said that directly and publicly.

    I'm trying not to focus on reports of Republicans being "thrilled", "giddy", "happier than in year" or Bachman's statement about a government shutdown being exactly what they wanted. I find that depressing, when there are real costs involved.
    There are real costs involved when the government *is* open as well, which is a large part of the reason the Republicans are doing what they're doing. Frankly, while I feel bad for those workers and businesses that are losing money because of this, I think it's interesting to see exactly what the ramifications of the government shuttimg down are, if only to remind us all the different things the government does, as well as how non-crucial it may or may not be, at least in the short-term, to the continued functioning of the rest of the economy/society. I remember when I was a little kid, wondering to myself what the hell would happen if the government just stopped doing all the different things it does. Now we're getting to see that actually play out on many (but not all [that would be more frightening]) different levels. It's kind of fascinating (but only would be for a short period - after a while, it will certainly be problematic, and need to end, however interesting the experience might have been).

  2. #102
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its the flip side of Beorn's "foreigners need not comment", I dont really believe that its possible to ignore the internal affairs of other states, espeically not superpowers or former superpowers because of the simple idea that if your neighbours house or wall is on fire it is your business, but if they really want to go down some road like seirra leone or somalia or some other "stateless" nation/treasure island I'm tempted to say let them.
    Not only that, but some of the most perceptive comments come from foreigners who view our difficulties from the outside, from perspectives quite different from the ruts our own parties and factions get stuck in. We would do well to consider what they have to say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Wow. I'm still laughing at you suggesting that the Republicans honor "gentleman's agreements" and insinuating that 'pubs never play dirty pool (without me even needing to address this particular situation, which in my view is not nearly as clear-cut as you seem to believe). Since I've been of voting age, it's been clear to me which party is the more cutthroat of the two, although that can of course always change. And now we've got the uncompromising Tea Party faction involved.

    Anyway, Thursday is over, time is trickling away. My two hunches so far:

    1. Enough Republicans will defect and Boehner will be reamed badly enough to allow a Yes or No vote early next week and a budget will pass.
    OR
    2. They'll run the clock out until right before defaulting on the debt ceiling and pass some things then.
    Some definite factional lines are appearing within the Republican party. There are the tea partiers, then the "old school" pragmatists like John McCain and many colleagues no longer in office, like Richard Lugar and Olympia Snowe on the senate side. There are the Christian fundamentalists pushing restrictive social policies, and the more libertarian folks wanting government out of our lives. Pressures have been mounting along more than one axis, and the best result might be a split of the GOP into two distinct parties. Not only would this produce more coherent and internally consistent groups that will be more attuned to their members, but given that each group should expect significant support, it would effectively turn the 2-party system into a 3-party system and completely shift the political dynamics in the U.S. Additional parties might become viable as well, though I suspect not many. Compromise will be a requirement as no party will be able to reach a majority anywhere, reaping some of the benefit of the parliamentary system.

    We can only hope. The political environment has been getting more disfunctional and logjammed for some time; something radical has to happen, and this is safer than revolution.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #103
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    I don't care one bit about the preservation of national security. It's much more visionary I think to imagine a world where people freely give of their own unique gifts and there's world peace, without need for any restrictions.

    I shall one day have the drive and determination to see it happen, even if I'm living in the land of my creation from my own grave!

    Well, it's best not to jump to conclusion about these kinds of things, but still, before you can move the mountain, you have to believe God can give you the strength, now or in future times.

  4. #104
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    There are real costs involved when the government *is* open as well, which is a large part of the reason the Republicans are doing what they're doing. Frankly, while I feel bad for those workers and businesses that are losing money because of this, I think it's interesting to see exactly what the ramifications of the government shuttimg down are, if only to remind us all the different things the government does, as well as how non-crucial it may or may not be, at least in the short-term, to the continued functioning of the rest of the economy/society. I remember when I was a little kid, wondering to myself what the hell would happen if the government just stopped doing all the different things it does. Now we're getting to see that actually play out on many (but not all [that would be more frightening]) different levels. It's kind of fascinating (but only would be for a short period - after a while, it will certainly be problematic, and need to end, however interesting the experience might have been).
    While the situation is certainly interesting, I think unexpectedly not paying employees, funding WIC, Head Start, etc is bad (as is unexpectedly welshing on commitments people depend on, generally). I admit it's entertaining to see some of the people behind the shutdown bent out of shape at its effects. Regardless, I saw much of this this play out in 1995, but at the time the economy was in a less fragile state (although there were still negative effects). The longer a Federal government shutdown goes on, the more people suffer and the more lasting the negative effects.

    And yes, government isn't free... it costs money to provide services. Conversely, not provided services (especially unexpectedly) also has costs. Keep in mind that often in the past, furloughed workers were paid for their furlough (which is fair, given that is was forced), which results in paying folks to not render needed services. While one can certainly have arguments about which ones are necessary and/or helpful, suddenly not providing them creates a great deal of uncertainty (and even more so a specter of a debt default). It seems odd to me that people criticizing ObamaCare for the uncertainty it supposedly creates would create even more uncertainty with a government shutdown and threat of default.

  5. #105
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    WIC is a pretty big deal. A lot of poor families depend upon it to buy most of their infant formula. That stuff is really expensive and babies are pretty sensitive to malnutrition. This is insane.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    WIC is a pretty big deal. A lot of poor families depend upon it to buy most of their infant formula. That stuff is really expensive and babies are pretty sensitive to malnutrition. This is insane.
    I didn't know WIC was offline. From this article I found, it sounds like they have a small cushion left, but they've stopped accepting new applications. yes, I think WIC is pretty important.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco...program-halts/

    It's pretty interesting to see who gets paid during furlough: The military and the vets. (And Congress.) I don't have anything against the first two groups, they are as dedicated as any other and have risked their lives. But... well, I guess you realize out who is considered more important (and less) when there's not enough food in the pot and people have to be fed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #107
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I didn't know WIC was offline. From this article I found, it sounds like they have a small cushion left, but they've stopped accepting new applications. yes, I think WIC is pretty important.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco...program-halts/

    It's pretty interesting to see who gets paid during furlough: The military and the vets. (And Congress.) I don't have anything against the first two groups, they are as dedicated as any other and have risked their lives. But... well, I guess you realize out who is considered more important (and less) when there's not enough food in the pot and people have to be fed.
    It's good to hear that WIC may have enough funding to limp along until late October. It sounds like some Head Start programs are being affected immediately, which can interfere with mothers (or fathers) holding down a job.

  8. #108
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I didn't know WIC was offline. From this article I found, it sounds like they have a small cushion left, but they've stopped accepting new applications. yes, I think WIC is pretty important.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco...program-halts/

    It's pretty interesting to see who gets paid during furlough: The military and the vets. (And Congress.) I don't have anything against the first two groups, they are as dedicated as any other and have risked their lives. But... well, I guess you realize out who is considered more important (and less) when there's not enough food in the pot and people have to be fed.
    Starving the people with the guns could be potentially dangerous and since we've been going with 'support our troops' propaganda to shut down opposition to military action since Viet Nam, it's a bad political move, especially for conservatives. Congressmen get most of their money from legal bribes, so cutting their salaries probably wouldn't hurt them much, but I'd be fine with trying just to see what happens. My town is home to a federal prison and I'm seeing rumblings on facebook that the guards aren't being paid.

    And the thing with WIC that makes me especially crazy is that when I was on it, they had a pretty hard time getting funding to encourage and support moms that wanted to breastfeed because there isn't any money for the dairy lobby in breastfeeding, so they are pimping their asses off selling formula for the dairy lobby and when they've got all these poor families depending on it (because once your milk dries up, it's probably not going to come back until you have another baby) they just pull the rug out like it's nothing. And it can permanently screw up their brain development if they do without for long enough, if the stuff I read when I had little ones is true.

    So many people are getting screwed and there aren't any consequences for the folks responsible for it. I contacted my congressman, but this is what he's got on his website:

    House Republicans believe this approach can and should find common ground with Senate Democrats and the White House,” said Bucshon. “Hoosiers have made it clear: they don’t want a government shutdown and they don’t want ObamaCare. This is a reasonable and fair solution. We grant families the same relief from the harmful effects of ObamaCare that the President gave big businesses, repeal the medical device tax, and ensure our troops gets paid if the President and Senate Democrats force a government shutdown. Now it is up to the Senate to do their work on behalf of the American people.

    So we're apparently shutting down the government and starving babies over a 2.3% tax on medical devices. I'm sure my email will be very persuasive.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #109
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    Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory

  10. #110
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I don't care one bit about the preservation of national security. It's much more visionary I think to imagine a world where people freely give of their own unique gifts and there's world peace, without need for any restrictions.

    I shall one day have the drive and determination to see it happen, even if I'm living in the land of my creation from my own grave!
    It likely would be. Such a strategy is tantamount to unilateral disarmament, a utopia that will not be reached in our lifetimes, if ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    And yes, government isn't free... it costs money to provide services. Conversely, not provided services (especially unexpectedly) also has costs. Keep in mind that often in the past, furloughed workers were paid for their furlough (which is fair, given that is was forced), which results in paying folks to not render needed services. While one can certainly have arguments about which ones are necessary and/or helpful, suddenly not providing them creates a great deal of uncertainty (and even more so a specter of a debt default). It seems odd to me that people criticizing ObamaCare for the uncertainty it supposedly creates would create even more uncertainty with a government shutdown and threat of default.
    Yes, it is penny-wise and pound-foolish, just like many of the recent budget cuts, including the ongoing sequester. The amount of labor hours spent by government employees just to revise all their budgets and plans to reflect the shortfalls - cut numbers that kept changing, so there were many rounds of revisions - probably wiped out much of the savings gained.

    It is one thing to say that Americans are resilient, and to show how people in various situations may be able to weather the current shutdown. When can endure alot when it is really necessary. The fact is, however, that these hardships, large and small, are being visited on people for no good reason. It is all a waste.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And the thing with WIC that makes me especially crazy is that when I was on it, they had a pretty hard time getting funding to encourage and support moms that wanted to breastfeed because there isn't any money for the dairy lobby in breastfeeding, so they are pimping their asses off selling formula for the dairy lobby and when they've got all these poor families depending on it (because once your milk dries up, it's probably not going to come back until you have another baby) they just pull the rug out like it's nothing. And it can permanently screw up their brain development if they do without for long enough, if the stuff I read when I had little ones is true.
    This is a good example of how the government passes up opportunities to operate more cost effectively while serving the public better. Save the formula subsidies for the babies that really need it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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