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  1. #91
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    The bottom line is the tea party feels justified in holding the country hostage because they are terrified that this law will become popular and stick just like social security and medicare
    The concern is that the country would not be able to practically extricate itself from it even as it continues or even grows in unpopularity (what is it now, 57%?) and involves 'unforeseen' escalating costs.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The concern is that the country would not be able to practically extricate itself from it even as it continues or even grows in unpopularity (what is it now, 57%?) and involves 'unforeseen' escalating costs.
    The great thing about democracy is a change of course is possible, although the aim is to prevent liberals legislating at all, which cant be correct, and even if escalating costs or unforeseen difficulties are the stated aims concern that it could become popular and undermine the core precepts and ideological values of the tea party are undenably part of it too.

    You know if people in the US begin to think of government intervention and democratic governance of business and markets as simply a civilised country rather than "socialism" or "red menace" or whatever how long is the fiscal libertarian ideology going to stand?

    The plutonomy isnt going to be able to stand, Citibank or whoever it was that produced the plutonomy memos fully admitted that democracy would challenge their vision and nothing else.

    Personally, I hope that change takes place, although I hope that change takes place globally. There was a time that values, politics, virtues mattered more than money and bottom line and people being bought off, that wasnt a left and right political thing, there were conservatives who werent worried about pleasing uber rich money men once upon a time too.

  3. #93

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    So tell me this and tell me no more, how does the US control its borders during this whole dealio?

    Got to be a way I can turn this to my advantage, I'll team up with @fidelia and invade the US, put it under EU control!

  4. #94
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So tell me this and tell me no more, how does the US control its borders during this whole dealio?
    Pretty sure they just put a "Closed: Will Return in 14-28 Days" sign up on the border. We may have also supplemented that with a "Beware of Dog" sign.

    (Serious answer: Border control is considered an essential service and will remain on the job. They may just not get paid until this is sorted out...)

  5. #95
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I just don't understand how any other business/organization in the country would not be getting paid if their company went on strike of some sort.. I think there really ought to be an amendment saying that those guys should not receive those portions of their salary when they shut down the government.
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  6. #96
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The gentleman's agreement I was referring to was the tradition of not passing legislation on the scale of Obamacare without substantial bipartisan support, thereby limiting the possibility of shutdown scenarios within our system of checks and balances. It was the Democrats who broke that gentleman's agreement by (barely) passing Obamacare through a temporary supermajority without any Republican support, despite knowing that such legislation requires strong bipartisan acceptance for implementation.
    Wow. I'm still laughing at you suggesting that the Republicans honor "gentleman's agreements" and insinuating that 'pubs never play dirty pool (without me even needing to address this particular situation, which in my view is not nearly as clear-cut as you seem to believe). Since I've been of voting age, it's been clear to me which party is the more cutthroat of the two, although that can of course always change. And now we've got the uncompromising Tea Party faction involved.

    Anyway, Thursday is over, time is trickling away. My two hunches so far:

    1. Enough Republicans will defect and Boehner will be reamed badly enough to allow a Yes or No vote early next week and a budget will pass.
    OR
    2. They'll run the clock out until right before defaulting on the debt ceiling and pass some things then.

    I can't honestly believe they will allow the debt ceiling deadline to pass and really hose everything.
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  7. #97
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I just don't understand how any other business/organization in the country would not be getting paid if their company went on strike of some sort.. I think there really ought to be an amendment saying that those guys should not receive those portions of their salary when they shut down the government.
    Same. I think each day they shut it down should be unrefundably subtracted from their salary.

    Though, really,, I think we should have provisions against shutting down the government at all. No American should have to go through temporarily losing their job for an undetermined amount of time because a few whiners in Congress can't accept that their side lost.

  8. #98

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    There's a second and more important deadline approaching too, that of the default if the debt ceiling is not adjusted.

    There's some real serious questions here because if the Tea Party is going to be able to control the US like then the world can no longer depend on the US perfoming the role it once did fiscally internationally.

    Its the flip side of Beorn's "foreigners need not comment", I dont really believe that its possible to ignore the internal affairs of other states, espeically not superpowers or former superpowers because of the simple idea that if your neighbours house or wall is on fire it is your business, but if they really want to go down some road like seirra leone or somalia or some other "stateless" nation/treasure island I'm tempted to say let them.

    The "experiments" in central planning and command economies maybe had to happen to persuade people they were fatally flawed, I believe the same thing HAS to happen to free markets. There are going to be plenty of people who wont handle the reality and the evidence is already there for anyone who is interested. However, it will take a once great nation imploding as a direct result of free markets before the power of the ideologues will be shaken the slightest.

  9. #99
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's a second and more important deadline approaching too, that of the default if the debt ceiling is not adjusted.

    There's some real serious questions here because if the Tea Party is going to be able to control the US like then the world can no longer depend on the US performing the role it once did fiscally internationally.
    I agree with you on that. We're still acting like we're the dominant world power and things have been shifting, and at some point we're going to realize as part of the global community that we can be held accountable as much as anyone else. because these actions just don't destabilize the US, they impact other economies now as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #100
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    1. Enough Republicans will defect and Boehner will be reamed badly enough to allow a Yes or No vote early next week and a budget will pass.
    OR
    2. They'll run the clock out until right before defaulting on the debt ceiling and pass some things then.

    I can't honestly believe they will allow the debt ceiling deadline to pass and really hose everything.
    Considering that half the Tea Party is in the South, I suspect that by and large they would be more than happy to let the Union's government default and fail. And the rest will do it out of pride and principle, and the need to "get something out of this". Luckily, Boehner already said that he won't let it go to a default, and I'm inclined to believe that. Still, I suspect he's going to have to let this drag out, so I see #2 being far more likely than #1. Which sucks.

    I also suspect that if they can avoid the default without reopening the government, they very well might. Although my first guess is that they'll get this sorted out on October 17th.

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