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  1. #101
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I think I just made a very solid argument here for the above points, and I'm completely open for counter-arguments; I actually love good challenges!
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^ When you can decide for more than 2 seconds together what your own type is, you might be a little more qualified to discuss things which clearly currently escape your understanding. Until then, leave it to the adults.
    Interesting. Thank you, both.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #102
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I have not read the entire thread, but I have found the concept of "privilege" to be helpful in understanding myself and others. It is especially important to see it as the multidimensional issue that it is. The majority of people are on both sides of privilege in different ways. Even the issue of agism could eventually affect the wealthy, healthy, white male. Combinations of privilege and underprivilege don't cancel each other out, but make for complex intertwining with society. There are some settings in which there are benefits and others where there are costs.

    A primary point of privilege is that it is invisible to those who benefit from it. I initially only saw the deficits of being poor, female, and from a family with a single mother, but I also benefitted from being caucasian. Becoming aware of how the system has given me merit that I didn't earn increases a sense of humility. It doesn't mean that I have no merit, just like it doesn't mean the most privileged have no merit and no needs. It is just a way of calibrating ones own self-perception to a more objective level. It requires that we go outside ourselves and view the system.

    There is a premise worth examining: If you cannot see who benefits from a system, there is a good chance it is you. If the system appears completely fair, there is a good chance it is constructed to favor you. If we cannot perceive our own privilege, how can the system be corrected?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #103
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There is a premise worth examining: If you cannot see who benefits from a system, there is a good chance it is you. If the system appears completely fair, there is a good chance it is constructed to favor you. If we cannot perceive our own privilege, how can the system be corrected?
    Obviously, we have to start by seeing our own privilege. The opposites of these questions can help: who is slighted by the system? who is underrepresented in it? who considers it unfair? There may be good reasons for some of these disparities, but that will come out in an objective examination.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^ When you can decide for more than 2 seconds together what your own type is, you might be a little more qualified to discuss things which clearly currently escape your understanding. Until then, leave it to the adults.
    Just because I say something doesn't mean I believe its correctness to be complete, nor does it mean I understand the basic foundations of Typology. Still, to learn, we just have to keep on talking. The evidence for this is simple: when ancient societies began using advanced forms of communication, like writing, human development went skyrocketing exponentially through the roof. It's only logical then that if we continue to shine forth our presentations, no matter how fallible they may be in nature, our overall levels of reasoning and enlightenment will be better refined.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé;2158239Your commentary applies more to England than the UK as a whole. We still have free higher education here. Though Tory policies are, predictably, widening the inequality gap for everyone. And using fascist ideology to justify it. [url
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/15/dominic-cummings-wealth-genes-inequality[/url].
    Whatever happens in England will happen across the regions sooner or later.

    The only alternative is if the regions can break away and form a confederation in oppsition to London, the bank fascists would be pleased about it initially and the House of Windsor can go fuck but eventually a new britain, maybe called something else, ruled from Athlone and Edinburgh with a new royal house would be worth the trouble. Then London will want back in and the following war I'd expect will deal with that.

  6. #106
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Whatever happens in England will happen across the regions sooner or later.
    What? You're remarkably ignorant, Unionist. Scottish education has never been and will never be, subject to Westminster dictates.

  7. #107
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The most dangerous privilege is the one that we take for granted, is invisible, right under our nose.

    Yes, print privileges the eye, but we take it for granted as though it were natural.

    But the privileged eye was unknown for 200,000 years in the spoken, tribal world.

    We had to be taken from our comfortable homes and compelled by law to go to an institution with specially trained staff to teach us to read and write and so privilege our eye.

    The eye of course thinks it sees everything, we even speak of the eye of God, but the eye hears nothing, tastes nothing, touches nothing, does not help us balance, but lords it over all the other senses.
    Last edited by Mole; 10-17-2013 at 07:43 PM.

  8. #108
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I have not read the entire thread, but I have found the concept of "privilege" to be helpful in understanding myself and others. It is especially important to see it as the multidimensional issue that it is. The majority of people are on both sides of privilege in different ways. Even the issue of agism could eventually affect the wealthy, healthy, white male. Combinations of privilege and underprivilege don't cancel each other out, but make for complex intertwining with society. There are some settings in which there are benefits and others where there are costs.

    A primary point of privilege is that it is invisible to those who benefit from it. I initially only saw the deficits of being poor, female, and from a family with a single mother, but I also benefitted from being caucasian. Becoming aware of how the system has given me merit that I didn't earn increases a sense of humility. It doesn't mean that I have no merit, just like it doesn't mean the most privileged have no merit and no needs. It is just a way of calibrating ones own self-perception to a more objective level. It requires that we go outside ourselves and view the system.

    There is a premise worth examining: If you cannot see who benefits from a system, there is a good chance it is you. If the system appears completely fair, there is a good chance it is constructed to favor you. If we cannot perceive our own privilege, how can the system be corrected?
    Indeed. Though many (most?) people are capable of perceiving their own privilege. Some NTJs do seem to struggle with the concept, probably related to the way they derive self-esteem.

    It's certainly not the case that the only reason one might be concerned about privilege is when one doesn't benefit from it oneself. In fact, the removal of obstacles to equality has usually been enacted (and indeed, must be enacted, if bloodlessly) by those in privileged positions growing more enlightened.

    I never had any sense of being disadvantaged as I was growing up (though by some standards I might have been considered so). It was always clear to me that I had opportunities and experiences open to me that were unreasonably denied to others. I'm not sure from where this sensibility derives...
    But I do think hardship confers its own privileges - in terms of helping one to develop empathy and a deep understanding of just how flimsy and arbitrary are the pretexts used for the stratification of society. An understanding that all the "privilege" in the world might well leave one ignorant about...

  9. #109
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Indeed. Though many (most?) people are capable of perceiving their own privilege. Some NTJs do seem to struggle with the concept, probably related to the way they derive self-esteem.

    It's certainly not the case that the only reason one might be concerned about privilege is when one doesn't benefit from it oneself. In fact, the removal of obstacles to equality has usually been enacted (and indeed, must be enacted, if bloodlessly) by those in privileged positions growing more enlightened.
    It would be interesting to define ways that awareness comes into being. Exposure to various demographics and different ways of thinking is one important way. Having more external information, especially conflicting data, to process is extremely helpful to be able to think clearly rather than just mimic other thought processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I never had any sense of being disadvantaged as I was growing up (though by some standards I might have been considered so). It was always clear to me that I had opportunities and experiences open to me that were unreasonably denied to others. I'm not sure from where this sensibility derives...
    But I do think hardship confers its own privileges - in terms of helping one to develop empathy and a deep understanding of just how flimsy and arbitrary are the pretexts used for the stratification of society. An understanding that all the "privilege" in the world might well leave one ignorant about...
    Agreed.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #110
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    What we need to do, all of us, is stop being such shitty human beings, constantly judging people on superficial bases. We need to let go of all these judgments we all too often make, remind ourselves that they have very little basis in reality, and start trying to see people for who they really are.
    There's something cuddly about that. Yes I agree with you.

    Not sure why I wasted a post just agreeing, although in retrospect I do that a lot and trends tend to continue for a short while.
    I think I'm fucking bored and creating a projection-lash out.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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