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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Actually, it is.
    No, really, it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    But since you are alarmingly ignorant of this fact, I'll spell it out for you.
    Oh, I knew exactly what you were pointing to.

    I just know why it's not racist.

    Thank you for falling into that trap, tho.

    You've made this so easy for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Defining "black women" as "the group who [sic] gives me the least problems" is unbelievably EGOCENTRIC.
    I know the Ti reet disease is strong in you, so you won't have an easy time understanding this, but there was no "defining" going on there. That might be how your brain works, but it's not how mine does, nor how many other peoples' do. That was an offhand comment that does tend to correlate strongly with external reality. You know nothing about my life, or how various groups of people tend to treat me, so for you to pretend like you have some authority on this matter is ridiculous. Talk about egocentric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Stating that any "group" behaves in a uniform way because of the colour of their skin is RACIST.
    Also a gross overstatement of my claim.

    Perhaps if I had said "all black men" or "all black women", then you'd have a point.

    But I did not.

    If you read my writing, I am tend to be very good at using qualifiers. I do not tend to make universal blanket statements. That, in this case, I did not explicitly include "tend to" in my construction does not mean that what I did tacitly mean was that "all" people of this category engage in x behavior. If you would give me the principle of charity while reading what I write, this much would be obvious. Seeing as how you have not, I'll make it explicit: what was ellipticized was "tend to", not "all".

    Furthermore, what I said about these groups, that they [tend to] "treat white males differently" isn't even inherently racist. It's not demeaning any group, it's not degrading to any group, it's simply an observation about how they tend to treat another group, and one that is actually, on the whole, quite accurate. Believe it or not, but different groups of people do actually tend to treat other groups of people differently than other groups of people. Pointing these tendencies out is not racist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Stating that any "group" behaves in a uniform way because of their gender is SEXIST.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Hope this helps.
    It did.

    To prove my point.

    Thank you.


  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Zarathustra provides us with an excellent example of "the distress of the privileged" or puny white middle-class male whining "WHERE'S MY DINNER"?


    Leave it to Shlomit to make a false accusation of racism and sexism, immediately followed by an explicitly racist and sexist statement.

    And, of course, to be completely unaware of it the whole time.

  3. #93
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    No. Unlike you, I single out the "puny", ideologically-stunted for my scorn (i.e. that class you choose to identify with). In fact, this critique was written by a white, middle-class male, so you can't excuse yourself on that basis.
    Nice try, but you fail. As usual.

  4. #94
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Social class is a big subject for unfair discrimination and prejudice, that does cut across race, sex, creed etc. but those things can act like multipler effects, ie you will be discriminated against on the basis of class but you will be further discriminated again on the combination of class, creed, sex. I'm not sure that any particular trait would be sufficient to have a balancing out effect or not, I've seen it in movies or other media that it is often assumed it does, at least by racists themselves or other sorts of prejudiced individuals.
    I ran across this article on Diversity and Anxiety in America that agrees with your observation about class, and some of mine about access to opportunity.

    Overall, the results suggest that for most Americans, class now trumps race as the defining obstacle of upward mobility, a sentiment that’s strongly reflected in other studies. The income and education gap between blacks and whites has narrowed in recent years while the same gaps have grown into chasms between those born-rich and born-poor, regardless of color or country of origin.

    The center seems to feel this opportunity gap acutely, with only 5 percent of the new majority strongly agreeing with the idea that America remains a land of opportunity for all — and almost a third (31 percent) doubting the statement that everyone has a chance to work themselves into the middle class.

    Far from nativist or racist, in other words, the center seems keen to fix America’s mobility problem, restoring unfettered access to opportunity, and protecting the American dream for all.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    No. Unlike you, I single out the "puny", ideologically-stunted for my scorn (i.e. that class you choose to identify with). In fact, this critique was written by a white, middle-class male, so you can't excuse yourself on that basis.
    Nice try, but you fail. As usual.
    Do you know how to win in the world, or just how to complain about how life isn't fair?

    Or is the only success you can measure the amount of guilt you can wring from those who have achieved more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I ran across this article on Diversity and Anxiety in America that agrees with your observation about class, and some of mine about access to opportunity.
    Duh. However, I went to public school, got my IB diploma. Then went to a public university I was paid to go to, to get my degree for free. Those are both paths open to anyone with the talent to make it happen regardless of background.

    It's out there for the taking if you try.

    No one will ever give it to you, you have to take it.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I ran across this article on Diversity and Anxiety in America that agrees with your observation about class, and some of mine about access to opportunity.
    There isnt any class mobility anymore but that's just the natural working out of stratification and time, no one makes it rich who wasnt rich to begin with and even most of the libertarian ideology as articulated by anyone of any class will disproportionately benefit the legacies and very old money.

    In the UK, and probably the US, the only "new money", and by extention "new class", has been the managerial "third way" politicians and taking Blair as an example they have not been accepted how they would like, have attracted no new constituencies to their parties as a power base and alienated their traditional support. So I'm not sure that any politicians using political office primarily and unashamedly to personally agrandise and seek their personal fortune in quite the same way will have as much luck.

    I'll be frank too, there have always been legacies, there have always been those who were on the bread line or skid row too but the diamond shaped social structure is giving way to an earlier pyramidical social structure because the 1% doesnt want to spend any money subsidising a larger middle class of professionals, small business etc. which are either directly or indirectly dependent upon money being circulated from taxation.

    The combination of jobless growth and popularity of benefits claimants being expected to live subsistence lifestyles means that there are less consumers, which means that even if that smaller population of consumers were to spend to the max they will not circulate enough cash for layers of businesses and then their suppliers in turn to survive.

    The resulting structure is not just a problem as it once was, there is an incredible inequity involved, the "classlessness" of yester year, ie rich man, poor man, begger man thief all enjoy a coca-cola, constitutes less and less of a sufficiency as a basis for basic consensus. Its Disraeli's "two nations" all over again, they relate very little to one another in any respect really. One couldnt care less about the other and the other hates the other.

  7. #97
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Duh. However, I went to public school, got my IB diploma. Then went to a public university I was paid to go to, to get my degree for free. Those are both paths open to anyone with the talent to make it happen regardless of background.

    It's out there for the taking if you try.

    No one will ever give it to you, you have to take it.
    No one will ever give it to me, or to you perhaps, but some people do have those things given to them. I expect to work for what I get, but I also expect to get it after I have done the work. I also expect to have the chance to work for it to begin with. Even this is more than some people get.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No one will ever give it to me, or to you perhaps, but some people do have those things given to them. I expect to work for what I get, but I also expect to get it after I have done the work. I also expect to have the chance to work for it to begin with. Even this is more than some people get.
    That's more realistic but I also think its becoming less realistic, in the UK the elites have already done A LOT to make mertiocratic opportunity and reward exclusive.

    In the main its been economic power exercised, price the plebs out of the market, some conservatives, a minority, have bemoaned how the universities are at risk of becoming expensive academic theme parks but in the main the privileged are pretty much fine with anything which passes as a defence of their privilege.

  9. #99
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    I can't tell whether @Salomé is more boxed or @Zarathustra is more arrogant, but clearly INTPs have egos in regards to their logic, and INTJs have egos in regards to their perceptions (and perhaps rightfully so to an extent; INTPs are after all very logical, and INTJs very perceptive).

    I'm going to speculate that in regards to INTPs and INTJs, the INTJs overall are more open-minded, and the most closed-minded person of the 2 will be an INTP, but the most open-minded person of them all I would actually guess to be an INTP as well.

    I say this because powerful reasoning directed towards exploring endless contingencies can really expand our horizons, but powerful reasoning directed towards justifying subjective systems could really get us trapped. INTPs have the most potential in my opinion to go either of those 2 ways.

    If we take 2 people very commonly typed as INTP like say, Albert Einstein and Gottfried Leibniz, we can see this exact same phenomenon I outlined; Einstein only accepted what fit his own internal constructions, whereas Leibniz was boundlessly curious about everything and developed a highly holistic worldview in a glorious attempt to completely understand the universe. This metaphysics was way ahead of its time, perhaps rivaled only by Giordano Bruno's cosmology, that and perhaps the philosophy of Nietzsche.

    I think I just made a very solid argument here for the above points, and I'm completely open for counter-arguments; I actually love good challenges!

  10. #100
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    ^ When you can decide for more than 2 seconds together what your own type is, you might be a little more qualified to discuss things which clearly currently escape your understanding. Until then, leave it to the adults.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit
    Honey, I'm home!
    Oh lookie. Right on cue. Another overfed wmm whining about his dinner.
    Tbh, I don't think missing a couple of meals will do you any harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's more realistic but I also think its becoming less realistic, in the UK the elites have already done A LOT to make mertiocratic opportunity and reward exclusive.

    In the main its been economic power exercised, price the plebs out of the market, some conservatives, a minority, have bemoaned how the universities are at risk of becoming expensive academic theme parks but in the main the privileged are pretty much fine with anything which passes as a defence of their privilege.
    Your commentary applies more to England than the UK as a whole. We still have free higher education here. Though Tory policies are, predictably, widening the inequality gap for everyone. And using fascist ideology to justify it. http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...nes-inequality.

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