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  1. #31
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Unless a white person has decided that _________ is offensive, no red, black, brown or yellow people shall be justified in finding it offensive.
    Just makes me want to get a stamp like this one

    that says CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE
    and stamp it all over everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    To me, it's really not cool using a racial slur directed at victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing as a mascot/team name.
    ^ +1
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    You're also assuming that it is racism, or at least perceived as such by a majority of American Indians.....I tried to find an actual poll of Native Americans on the subject, there apparently isn't one. There is overwhelming support among the general population (which I'm kind of assuming isn't racist in general) for keeping the name, however, and that quantity of positive utility arguably overrules the quality of the negative utility in question, given the ambiguity of the issue and the lack of infringement on rights, liberty, or property involved.
    TBH where are you going to find a poll of Native Americans on ANYTHING like this? IME people don't usually poll them on much of anything, even when they should. (Props to you or anybody who proves me wrong on this, because I'd love to see that sort of polling data)

    As for the bolded: It's very safe to assume that the general population is ignorant on Native American issues and cultural history. As far as most of non-Native America is concerned, the Indians all died after Custer's Last Stand. Except wait, there were those dudes on Alcatraz in the sixties.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  2. #32
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    TBH where are you going to find a poll of Native Americans on ANYTHING like this? IME people don't usually poll them on much of anything, even when they should. (Props to you or anybody who proves me wrong on this, because I'd love to see that sort of polling data)
    I've managed to find one in Sports Illustrated, but I have no idea how reputable it is: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...46/1/index.htm

    Apparently, most Native Americans are fine with the names, though not overwhelmingly so on reservations.

  3. #33
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    TBH where are you going to find a poll of Native Americans on ANYTHING like this? IME people don't usually poll them on much of anything, even when they should. (Props to you or anybody who proves me wrong on this, because I'd love to see that sort of polling data)
    I've managed to find one in Sports Illustrated, but I have no idea how reputable it is: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...46/1/index.htm

    Apparently, most Native Americans are fine with the names, though not overwhelmingly so on reservations.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Cool. I don't care.
    ...oh...kay.

    I'm not really sure what you think I'm advocating or even what you're saying, but you clearly care enough to comment.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #35
    Senior Member SensEye's Avatar
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    I'm not one for political correctness, but even I will admit Redskins is a tad offensive. OTOH, Braves is completely harmless (as is Warriors). Indians is on the bubble (same ballpark as Yankees or Canucks in my mind).

    Regarding the NFL team in question I think its a case of old school SJ stubborness vs new age sensibilities. Stubborness will probably win out until they find the name/logo doesn't sell well to new agers. I have to believe it will eventually become uncool to sport Redskins merchandise (although one can never be sure with this type of thing). If merchandise sales fall far enough, all the old "tradition" arguments will likely get tossed out the window in the name of re-branding profitability.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    ...so, I'll clarify.

    I find it more than a little odious that there are organizations who claim to represent the wills of an entire racial/ethnic/sexual orientation/other group. I understand these organizations can do positive things and are extremely valuable at combatting problems and advancing causes, and I don't think they should disappear. However, sometimes they take on a role or position, especially certain 'high minded' individuals representing the group, that they are somehow omnipresent and really speak for all the people, convieniently ignoring when they don't, in fact, speak for all the people.

    There can also be a tone of knowing what's better for the group than people know for themselves. And in reality - sometimes people really do know what's better for other people, it's not an easy black and white thing, but sometimes people think they know what's good while not realizing that some people are really just different than they are. By trying p/maternalistically force their agenda, they end up ignoring the desires of the very people they claim to represent. It's not always easy to tell the difference.


    So my position is this: I think it's just a silly name for a sports team and it seems like it offends people so I don't really mind if it gets changed. But I don't think that the world should revolve around never offending anyone anywhere, either.

    That said, I think people should be careful about how they characterize an issue and avoid polarized terms. There is more depth to this issue than just 'privleged jerk sports fans' and 'completely unified and livid, offended Native Americans' and that sort of categorization can cause problems in it's own way.





    TL;DR:

    I think changing the names sounds good but I think framing the issue in polarized terms ends up marginalizing people who, ironically, are being claimed to be represented. People are right to point out that getting clear data on an issue is hard to do.

    Also, as an aside, in my experience I've found that (often well meaning) people seem unusually taken by the opinions of individuals who claim to represent a (foreign, to the well meaning person) group, while remaining unaware of the variation of actual viewpoints within that group. It's worth noting that people who claim to represent their group are, generally, unusual (as most people within a group wouldn't make a similar claim, those sort of speakers are always rarer than the common person), and by definition are people who stake a great deal of pride or personal identity in that label. Whereas other people within the group (who would never persue the role of speaker of their group) might not actually care that much, or care in the same way.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  7. #37
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    ...oh...kay.

    I'm not really sure what you think I'm advocating or even what you're saying, but you clearly care enough to comment.
    I was addressing this quote.

    it's probably worth asking what people really think instead of listening to the talking heads.
    That's what I really think. I don't care if they change the name or keep it and I agree, don't listen to the talking heads.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I was addressing this quote.



    That's what I really think. I don't care if they change the name or keep it and I agree, don't listen to the talking heads.
    Oh. Well that's clearer. Cool.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #39

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    Lowtech Redneck's username could imply that all rednecks are low tech

  10. #40
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    This whole issue makes a mountain out of a mole hill.

    When was the last time any of us heard the word redskin outside of a reference to the NFL team, or within the confines of a historical discussion?

    I, for one, cannot recall....

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