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  1. #21
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think it's rather sad how the natives were apparently beaten badly enough that you can get away with mocking them. Here's a simple mental exercise; how would you feel about a team being called the Washington Niggers, Spics, or Chinks? If those are not acceptable (and I pray you say they are not), why is the Washington Red Skins?

    Just imagine the logo, too. The profile of a stereotypical looking black dude, or Mexican bandito, or a Chinese mandarin.



    And consider that the name was originally Bullets, but was changed to Wizards because Bullets was considered disturbing for a city with a high gun violence rate.
    Took the words right out of my mouth. Let me add one thing, the fact that this has become normalised as part of tradition really doesn't make it any better. Modern day racism is a more subtle and systematic beast, but every bit as scary as the more traditional brand of racial discrimination. It's just as bad to reduce the richness of a culture into some sort of caricature. Imagine a place where white people have been historically discriminated against, now imagine that the main sports team there was called 'The Brownsville White People'. You, being white yourself, start talking to the locals, just to see what they think of all this.

    You: "So the Brownsville White People huh?"

    Local: "Yeah man, they've won 3 national championships in 5 years! We love the White People! Hey, you're white, don't you feel honoured? Kinda funny right, considering white people can't jump! Just promise you won't break out any dance moves when we win a 4th title! Hahahahha! Oh, I'm only joking".

    Of course, something like the name of a sports team is only a small, small part of institutional racism. Now, imagine that in this place, certain Hollywood westerns have become quite popular. Now every time there's a white person in a local movie, that character will always just happen to wear a cowboy hat and be good with guns. Heck, the new Brownsville blockbuster hit has a white female lead! The Brownsvillian main character falls in love with a modern Texan girl, represented as a cowgirl. This girl's family are myopic and violent. But of course, the main character manages to beat up all the white people and get the girl in the end. What a salute to your culture! You can't even walk into a bar without the bartender doing making a little pistol gesture with his hand, greeting you with a pretend gunshot. As fate would have, you're not from the south, heck you're not even from the States, you're from a small, middle-class family in London. You've never even set foot on American soil before, so of course you don't really feel any connection from seeing a cowboy on film. Not that you'll ever try to explain that to the bartender though -- he was just trying to be friendly.

    Imagine all this and understand that this is reality in which minorities have to live in within western countries. So no, the native Americans aren't just getting butthurt over nothing. This Redskins thing is just one small bit, something small that can actually be changed, that's part of the bigger, institutionally racist picture
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  2. #22
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    So this is a round-a-bout way of saying just change the name because why really care? It's just a stupid name. You can beat your chest and scream at the TV at a different name and it'll be the exact same thing.
    Exactly.

    I think it's so funny the people who are against it are trying to use the same argument, but only in their preferred direction. They say to the offended people: "It's just a name, who cares?". And then they turn around and get angry when people say the same to them.

  3. #23
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think it's rather sad how the natives were apparently beaten badly enough that you can get away with mocking them. Here's a simple mental exercise; how would you feel about a team being called the Washington Niggers, Spics, or Chinks? If those are not acceptable (and I pray you say they are not), why is the Washington Red Skins?

    Just imagine the logo, too. The profile of a stereotypical looking black dude, or Mexican bandito, or a Chinese mandarin.
    All of those other terms have always been derogatory slurs, while the term 'Redskin' has had both positive and negative connotations throughout history, as I believe that article noted, and it was in reference to those positive connotations that the team was named. In other words, the name has more in common with the "Yankees" than with the slurs you mentioned. I suppose I wouldn't name a modern team 'Redskins' given what many people seem to view as the common definition, but I'm perfectly fine with the team unofficially having a grandfathered right to the team name, I certainly don't think my Cherokee ancestors are dishonored by it.

    As for the logo, it looks like a dignified profile of a historical American Indian warrior, not exactly a derogatory caricature.

    Finally, go Braves!

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I wonder if any white forum members feel that Lowtech Redneck should change his username on the basis that its offensive?


  5. #25
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    As a general statement:

    Despite the typical claims of any group that claims to represent everyone else in their racial group that they are all united and have a common voice (typically that common voice is, conviently, the organization itself) (extreme eye rolling here), it's probably worth asking what people really think instead of listening to the talking heads.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    As a general statement:

    Despite the typical claims of any group that claims to represent everyone else in their racial group that they are all united and have a common voice (typically that common voice is, conviently, the organization itself) (extreme eye rolling here), it's probably worth asking what people really think instead of listening to the talking heads.
    Cool. I don't care.
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  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    All of those other terms have always been derogatory slurs, while the term 'Redskin' has had both positive and negative connotations throughout history, as I believe that article noted, and it was in reference to those positive connotations that the team was named. In other words, the name has more in common with the "Yankees" than with the slurs you mentioned. I suppose I wouldn't name a modern team 'Redskins' given what many people seem to view as the common definition, but I'm perfectly fine with the team unofficially having a grandfathered right to the team name, I certainly don't think my Cherokee ancestors are dishonored by it.

    As for the logo, it looks like a dignified profile of a historical American Indian warrior, not exactly a derogatory caricature.

    Finally, go Braves!
    The connotations of terms change, and I don't care if you don't consider the image derogatory. Let's use some term for black people that was once considered the more polite term of its time. The Washington Coloreds or the Washington Negroes. Then, along with that, have the image of a black man with a narrowly defined culture (so let's say a black man of reconstruction era deep south) in the exact same style as the Red Skins logo. I still think that would be pretty questionable.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The connotations of terms change, and I don't care if you don't consider the image derogatory. Let's use some term for black people that was once considered the more polite term of its time. The Washington Coloreds or the Washington Negroes. Then, along with that, have the image of a black man with a narrowly defined culture (so let's say a black man of reconstruction era deep south) in the exact same style as the Red Skins logo. I still think that would be pretty questionable.
    Connotations change, but the legacy of a name's original meaning remains the same for continuously existing organizations (I don't think I need to point out the most obvious one), and this particular organization has a large fan base, whose wishes, in the interests of the utilitarian outcomes you claim to prioritize, should be taken into account for anything short of an unambiguous slur that few reasonable people would view as complementary.

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Connotations change, but the legacy of a name's original meaning remains the same for continuously existing organizations (I don't think I need to point out the most obvious one), and this particular organization has a large fan base, whose wishes, in the interests of the utilitarian outcomes you claim to prioritize, should be taken into account for anything short of an unambiguous slur that few reasonable people would view as complementary.
    The utilitarian consideration requires either one of us to make some assumptions. How many people want the name to stay the same? How many want it to change? How much would it hurt the first category to change it? How much would it hurt the second not to change it?

    I suppose I am prioritizing the offense caused by racism over the attachment to the name of a sports team.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The utilitarian consideration requires either one of us to make some assumptions. How many people want the name to stay the same? How many want it to change? How much would it hurt the first category to change it? How much would it hurt the second not to change it?

    I suppose I am prioritizing the offense caused by racism over the attachment to the name of a sports team.
    You're also assuming that it is racism, or at least perceived as such by a majority of American Indians.....I tried to find an actual poll of Native Americans on the subject, there apparently isn't one. There is overwhelming support among the general population (which I'm kind of assuming isn't racist in general) for keeping the name, however, and that quantity of positive utility arguably overrules the quality of the negative utility in question, given the ambiguity of the issue and the lack of infringement on rights, liberty, or property involved.

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