User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 110

Thread: 9/11 happened.

  1. #51
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    3w2 so
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    You know what, I don't think msg_v2 was just trying to be an ass when he pointed out that you didn't live here - one of the things that is very noticeable to someone who lived here both pre- and post- 9/11 is that there was, at least through my perspective, a fairly significant climate shift from basically just being happy about living in the States to a divisive sort of "whoever's the most patriotic deserves to be a citizen the most" and "must be on alert against outsiders" sort of atmosphere. So if it's been a military tactic sort of thing, it's been since that time, and again I don't really know how useful that would actually prove in terms of countering terrorism. And I do think that for someone living here, that climate shift could either just be adopted and run with, or it could easily be - as it has for myself and some others - disconcerting and uncomfortable. I am just not much of a nationalist, and it is alienating to me as a citizen to have my country be like this. It's sort of weird. I feel like I want to be a good American, but I am also inclined to distrust America more post-9/11. For myself and others like me, it has become a reaction maybe to that sort of distrust to look to the country as a source of blame. It is not that I do not have pride in the people here or want to support unity, but I am not always sure what it is exactly that I am supporting, and I am not sure of my voice in it when I am being questioned myself.
    Well said, skylights.
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
    RobertCalifornia: shes my homegurl
    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

    thoughtlost: I am not really religious. I just like getting free stuff from churches.

  2. #52
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    3w2 so
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I was going to make my own thread, but then I saw this one, and I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one with frustration about the date. I tried to speak to a friend about it earlier and she gave me a standard "patriotic" shut-up response.

    Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't hate the States, which is my homeland. I think that the US has done a lot of admirable things. I feel compassion for my fellow citizens and I would like to be a part of the mechanism for making this a better country for everyone. I actually had a family member mere blocks away from Ground Zero and we were terrified for him, and of course I feel deeply for those whose lives have been lost or shaken by the event.

    However. I hate what 9/11 has come to represent, which to me seems like garish hypernationalism, overzealous aggression that goes by the name of "patriotism", and American superiority. The framing of Americans as rightful innocents and Middle Eastern Muslims as evil puppets of vile, orderless regimes. The idea that it is the right of the United States, because it has power, to police everyone else, though it is still firmly entrenched in its own issues. I also hate that it inevitably seems to be the least compassionate of my acquaintances who crawl out of the woodwork to post huge memorials on their Facebook pages, or the like. It all seems so fake and contrived. It seems more about showing off how "patriotic" you are than about considering the real consequences of the state of the world and the US's role in it. It seems more about asserting the US as a "power that will overcome" instead of a reasonable world citizen that seeks to play fair with its neighbors and achieve a better life quality for everyone.

    Beh, that's my rant. I would like to respect 9/11, but I haven't found a reason to do so. I'm hoping in the future this will change. But for right now it's rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm glad that I'm not alone in that.

    Edit, afterthought - Maybe someday I will try to make it something more positive, by donating to victims of violence or to emergency responders (unfortunately, college tuition has other ideas for my wallet). I'm glad that there are people out there who won't write me off because I'm not just accepting the propaganda I'm spoonfed. I guess my question is, what the heck do those of us who aren't on board with "patriotism" do to support our country while rejecting nationalist bias? Right now I'm just into doing due diligence by voting and being a generally lawful citizen, but I'm frustrated that people write me off as a counterculture rebel, instead of a fellow American, because I dare to question this date that has somehow become "sacred".
    Skylights, this is another great post. You know, I've had similar experiences to yours. Your last few sentences reminded me of a time in college when a professor and some conservative classmates labeled me a "hipster" presumably because I spent a large part of the semester asking provocative questions about American culture (including nationalism). I can't really think of anything else about me that was remotely hipster, as I'm a bit Bree Van De Kamp (from Desperate Housewives) in real life. I never really thought about it much, but your last sentence about being labeled a counterculture rebel made me smile and remember that. I hear you, woman.
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
    RobertCalifornia: shes my homegurl
    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

    thoughtlost: I am not really religious. I just like getting free stuff from churches.

  3. #53
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    CROW
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,045

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    You know what, I don't think msg_v2 was just trying to be an ass when he pointed out that you didn't live here - one of the things that is very noticeable to someone who lived here both pre- and post- 9/11 is that there was, at least through my perspective, a fairly significant climate shift from basically just being happy about living in the States to a divisive sort of "whoever's the most patriotic deserves to be a citizen the most" and "must be on alert against outsiders" sort of atmosphere. So if it's been a military tactic sort of thing, it's been since that time, and again I don't really know how useful that would actually prove in terms of countering terrorism. And I do think that for someone living here, that climate shift could either just be adopted and run with, or it could easily be - as it has for myself and some others - disconcerting and uncomfortable. I am just not much of a nationalist, and it is alienating to me as a citizen to have my country be like this. It's sort of weird. I feel like I want to be a good American, but I am also inclined to distrust America more post-9/11. For myself and others like me, it has become a reaction maybe to that sort of distrust to look to the country as a source of blame. It is not that I do not have pride in the people here or want to support unity, but I am not always sure what it is exactly that I am supporting, and I am not sure of my voice in it when I am being questioned myself.
    Yeah... an important thing to note is that I never had much of an issue with patriotism before 9/11. That's because prior to 9/11, it was mellower and quieter. It wasn't something one needed to garishly express on pickup trucks or convenience stores.

    There was a definite climate shift. You couldn't really ask where all this flag imagery was headed, it was seen as improper or disrespectful somehow, at best. And it bothered me how people did a complete reversal on their principles after that, and somehow, I'm supposed to forget about it and pretend it didn't happen.

    I'm just lad that much of that has subsided, and I'm actually pleasantly surprised to see that I'm not a voice in the wilderness here.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  4. #54
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    3w2 so
    Posts
    1,671

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yeah... an important thing to note is that I never had much of an issue with patriotism before 9/11. That's because prior to 9/11, it was mellower and quieter. It wasn't something one needed to garishly express on pickup trucks or convenience stores.

    There was a definite climate shift. You couldn't really ask where all this flag imagery was headed, it was seen as improper or disrespectful somehow, at best. And it bothered me how people did a complete reversal on their principles after that, and somehow, I'm supposed to forget about it and pretend it didn't happen.

    I'm just lad that much of that has subsided, and I'm actually pleasantly surprised to see that I'm not a voice in the wilderness here.
    I don't have an issue with patriotism; I haven't in the past and don't right now. I am so proudly an American. However, when that becomes synonymous with a lack of interest in cooperating with the rest of the world, I have a problem with it.
    RobertCalifornia: TL thinks im black
    RobertCalifornia: shes my homegurl
    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

    thoughtlost: I am not really religious. I just like getting free stuff from churches.

  5. #55
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    I never really thought about it much, but your last sentence about being labeled a counterculture rebel made me smile and remember that. I hear you, woman.


    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yeah... an important thing to note is that I never had much of an issue with patriotism before 9/11. That's because prior to 9/11, it was mellower and quieter. It wasn't something one needed to garishly express on pickup trucks or convenience stores.

    There was a definite climate shift. You couldn't really ask where all this flag imagery was headed, it was seen as improper or disrespectful somehow, at best. And it bothered me how people did a complete reversal on their principles after that, and somehow, I'm supposed to forget about it and pretend it didn't happen.

    I'm just lad that much of that has subsided, and I'm actually pleasantly surprised to see that I'm not a voice in the wilderness here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    I don't have an issue with patriotism; I haven't in the past and don't right now. I am so proudly an American. However, when that becomes synonymous with a lack of interest in cooperating with the rest of the world, I have a problem with it.
    Both of these posts, exactly. Patriotism used to be a quiet pride and dignity. It became something very different. Non-cooperation would seem to have its roots back in American isolationism - but once upon a time that meant being self-absorbed but also not interfering in other countries' affairs. To both be self-absorbed and to intervene in other nations' issues seems like we're trying to have our cake and eat it, too.

  6. #56
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    iSFj
    Enneagram
    2 sx/so
    Posts
    9,666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I just wanted to make sure people remember. I was afraid people would forget.
    I haven't. It's been heavy on my heart and I'm watching footage right now on TV. What a terrible day.

  7. #57
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I haven't. It's been heavy on my heart and I'm watching footage right now on TV. What a terrible day.

  8. #58
    A Mystery Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    XNTP
    Enneagram
    359
    Posts
    891

    Default

    Eventually people forget, it's a sad thing to see. People forget none the less, as I've seen people who don't even know much about World War 2. As an example of people forgetting terrible things that happened.
    Always forward, never back!

    "I always love talking to people and hearing their story. People always have a good life story to tell ya know?"



    My blog in regular blogs

  9. #59
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    CROW
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,045

    Default

    I've never met any adult in the U.S. who didn't know about World War II. Everyone knows Hitler.

    If people don't know about WWII, how can we Godwin things?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  10. #60
    A Mystery Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    XNTP
    Enneagram
    359
    Posts
    891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I've never met any adult in the U.S. who didn't know about World War II. Everyone knows Hitler.

    If people don't know about WWII, how can we Godwin things?
    Yeah I've seen many who know about Hitler and the Holocaust too.

    That is about it though, but I have seen people who know various things.
    Always forward, never back!

    "I always love talking to people and hearing their story. People always have a good life story to tell ya know?"



    My blog in regular blogs

Similar Threads

  1. What Happens at 100, by Rajah
    By Rajah in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-23-2007, 11:46 AM
  2. So it's actually happening?
    By The Ü™ in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-21-2007, 11:07 PM
  3. USA needs another 9/11?
    By heart in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 10-16-2007, 07:43 AM
  4. What happens to the young artists?
    By raincrow007 in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 09-11-2007, 01:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO