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Thread: 9/11 happened.

  1. #31
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    I didn't catch it! I need to find it online.
    Here you go, my doll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    Here you go, my doll.

    You're the woman! Thank you. I'll listen to it on my ride home.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Can you specify what you mean by an interest in global politics and progression?
    I don't feel many progressions in the human condition have been spawned unilaterally. It seems to be a scaffolding of violence, building off of each circumstance towards a "final order" of states (IMO, @RaptorWizard - THE NEW WORLD ORDER).

    Here's a cool essay on the topic authored by Bertrand Russell, if you've got the time:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...of-man/305193/

    Sometimes I do wonder if I've unconditionally accepted war as a natural role of man in this world. It seems inevitable to my mind, and I do have solutions, but perhaps I am too eager to accept its commonplace...

  4. #34
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    Default I (currently) hate 9/11.

    I was going to make my own thread, but then I saw this one, and I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one with frustration about the date. I tried to speak to a friend about it earlier and she gave me a standard "patriotic" shut-up response.

    Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't hate the States, which is my homeland. I think that the US has done a lot of admirable things. I feel compassion for my fellow citizens and I would like to be a part of the mechanism for making this a better country for everyone. I actually had a family member mere blocks away from Ground Zero and we were terrified for him, and of course I feel deeply for those whose lives have been lost or shaken by the event.

    However. I hate what 9/11 has come to represent, which to me seems like garish hypernationalism, overzealous aggression that goes by the name of "patriotism", and American superiority. The framing of Americans as rightful innocents and Middle Eastern Muslims as evil puppets of vile, orderless regimes. The idea that it is the right of the United States, because it has power, to police everyone else, though it is still firmly entrenched in its own issues. I also hate that it inevitably seems to be the least compassionate of my acquaintances who crawl out of the woodwork to post huge memorials on their Facebook pages, or the like. It all seems so fake and contrived. It seems more about showing off how "patriotic" you are than about considering the real consequences of the state of the world and the US's role in it. It seems more about asserting the US as a "power that will overcome" instead of a reasonable world citizen that seeks to play fair with its neighbors and achieve a better life quality for everyone.

    Beh, that's my rant. I would like to respect 9/11, but I haven't found a reason to do so. I'm hoping in the future this will change. But for right now it's rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm glad that I'm not alone in that.

    Edit, afterthought - Maybe someday I will try to make it something more positive, by donating to victims of violence or to emergency responders (unfortunately, college tuition has other ideas for my wallet). I'm glad that there are people out there who won't write me off because I'm not just accepting the propaganda I'm spoonfed. I guess my question is, what the heck do those of us who aren't on board with "patriotism" do to support our country while rejecting nationalist bias? Right now I'm just into doing due diligence by voting and being a generally lawful citizen, but I'm frustrated that people write me off as a counterculture rebel, instead of a fellow American, because I dare to question this date that has somehow become "sacred".

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I was going to make my own thread, but then I saw this one, and I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one with frustration about the date. I tried to speak to a friend about it earlier and she gave me a standard "patriotic" shut-up response.

    Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't hate the States, which is my homeland. I think that the US has done a lot of admirable things. I feel compassion for my fellow citizens and I would like to be a part of the mechanism for making this a better country for everyone. I actually had a family member mere blocks away from Ground Zero and we were terrified for him, and of course I feel deeply for those whose lives have been lost or shaken by the event.

    However. I hate what 9/11 has come to represent, which to me seems like garish hypernationalism, overzealous aggression that goes by the name of "patriotism", and American superiority. The framing of Americans as rightful innocents and Middle Eastern Muslims as evil puppets of vile, orderless regimes. The idea that it is the right of the United States, because it has power, to police everyone else, though it is still firmly entrenched in its own issues. I also hate that it inevitably seems to be the least compassionate of my acquaintances who crawl out of the woodwork to post huge memorials on their Facebook pages, or the like. It all seems so fake and contrived. It seems more about showing off how "patriotic" you are than about considering the real consequences of the state of the world and the US's role in it. It seems more about asserting the US as a "power that will overcome" instead of a reasonable world citizen that seeks to play fair with its neighbors and achieve a better life quality for everyone.

    Beh, that's my rant. I would like to respect 9/11, but I haven't found a reason to do so. I'm hoping in the future this will change. Maybe someday I will try to make it something more positive, by donating to victims of violence or to emergency responders. But for right now it's rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm glad that I'm not alone in that.

  6. #36
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    Look guys, you dont need to buy the whole imperial-patriot message or neocon history to be gripped by the horror of just what was exactly involved in this terror attack, the movie Remember Me was good, I felt, because it took a story of someone who was just going about their business, life, relationship, drink problem, estranged parents and low and behold he's in the tower watching the plane fly in.

    Because at the end of the day that's what happens with terrorism. Clash of ideologies, people channelling their individual violent impulses under a flag of convenience, ancient animosities, whatever. At the end of the day its innocent people, bystanders, getting murdered, having their lives cut short, sacrificed as proof to the world of someone elses hateful death cult beliefs (probably overcompensating for private doubts).

    Maybe the whole thing has been ruthlessly exploited as a foundation myth by no nothings and friendly fascists, sure there's atrocities elsewhere in the world involving bombs, sometimes even human bombs like the london bus bombings and they dont go in for the same sort of rememberance ceremonies but fuck that noise. Defenceless, innocent people were murdered and I dont care were the grudges came from that shit shouldnt ever fly.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Defenceless, innocent people were murdered and I dont care were the grudges came from that shit shouldnt ever fly.
    What shit? Not posting red-white-and-blue profile pictures and questioning American politics?

    I'm all for remembrance and memorials, especially proactive ones like actually working to make conditions better for victims or future situations like this.

    But that's not how the vast majority of people I know are handling this day. They seem to use it for personal image gain.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Look guys, you dont need to buy the whole imperial-patriot message or neocon history to be gripped by the horror of just what was exactly involved in this terror attack, the movie Remember Me was good, I felt, because it took a story of someone who was just going about their business, life, relationship, drink problem, estranged parents and low and behold he's in the tower watching the plane fly in.
    You also didn't live here when it happened. I did.

    I also find it very hard to separate that from neocon history, also. I can't compartmentalize my experiences into a "good" reaction of people to 9/11 and a "bad" one. To me, it flows into one another and is inevitable line towards the 10 year Iraq War that everyone now thinks is a mistake. But this certainly wasn't a common opinion at the time. Why? 9/11. The extolling of post-9/11 unity so beloved by more traditional liberals has a dark side to it when you actually stop and think about what was done with that unity and what it amounted to. You can blame Bush all you want, but Hillary Clinton voted for all the same shitty policies.

    Honestly, I don't even fault the Bush Administration that much. People then really had no use for sense. The polling numbers are now flipped with regards to the action in Syria. This suggests that Iraq wasn't something the government manipulate people into going along with, not entirely. People also kind of wanted to be manipulated, I think. I think the "humanitarian" argument that was made was really just a cover for feelings of vengeance. There are "humanitarian" reasons to intervene in Syria but no one wants to now, because people's lust for vengeance has been sated.

    You can blame the whole thing on chads or Dick Cheney if you want, but I think at the end of the day, if it was an Inside Job, it's that's a more comforting alternative than the "official story" which suggests that we aren't as civillized as we think we are. Apart from my introverted Thinking rebelling against the conspiracy theory, I also reject it because it seems more comforting, and therefore cannot be true.

    I can't put the "human drama" of the events of the day, and view them in some kind of vacuum, independent of what came after. We're still dealing with 9/11, and not just once a year. Snowden, Manning, probably the Arab Spring in some way.

    Yes the American deaths matter, but what matters more is that it's proof that we haven't really evolved that much, even among those of us who are "enlightened". Many people speak of universal values, but it is very easy to do this when it is convenient. When things get tough and uncertain, many people will abandon those values. They don't count for that much among most people.

    People are going to tell me I'm cynical, but can anyone really refute what I'm saying? So far no one has. Too bad, because I want them to. But all the responses I get sound like something out of a Disney movie. This is what I will never be able to forget.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I was going to make my own thread, but then I saw this one, and I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one with frustration about the date. I tried to speak to a friend about it earlier and she gave me a standard "patriotic" shut-up response.

    Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I don't hate the States, which is my homeland. I think that the US has done a lot of admirable things. I feel compassion for my fellow citizens and I would like to be a part of the mechanism for making this a better country for everyone. I actually had a family member mere blocks away from Ground Zero and we were terrified for him, and of course I feel deeply for those whose lives have been lost or shaken by the event.

    However. I hate what 9/11 has come to represent, which to me seems like garish hypernationalism, overzealous aggression that goes by the name of "patriotism", and American superiority. The framing of Americans as rightful innocents and Middle Eastern Muslims as evil puppets of vile, orderless regimes. The idea that it is the right of the United States, because it has power, to police everyone else, though it is still firmly entrenched in its own issues. I also hate that it inevitably seems to be the least compassionate of my acquaintances who crawl out of the woodwork to post huge memorials on their Facebook pages, or the like. It all seems so fake and contrived. It seems more about showing off how "patriotic" you are than about considering the real consequences of the state of the world and the US's role in it. It seems more about asserting the US as a "power that will overcome" instead of a reasonable world citizen that seeks to play fair with its neighbors and achieve a better life quality for everyone.

    Beh, that's my rant. I would like to respect 9/11, but I haven't found a reason to do so. I'm hoping in the future this will change. But for right now it's rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm glad that I'm not alone in that.

    Edit, afterthought - Maybe someday I will try to make it something more positive, by donating to victims of violence or to emergency responders (unfortunately, college tuition has other ideas for my wallet). I'm glad that there are people out there who won't write me off because I'm not just accepting the propaganda I'm spoonfed. I guess my question is, what the heck do those of us who aren't on board with "patriotism" do to support our country while rejecting nationalist bias? Right now I'm just into doing due diligence by voting and being a generally lawful citizen, but I'm frustrated that people write me off as a counterculture rebel, instead of a fellow American, because I dare to question this date that has somehow become "sacred".
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    What shit? Not posting red-white-and-blue profile pictures and questioning American politics?

    I'm all for remembrance and memorials, especially proactive ones like actually working to make conditions better for victims or future situations like this.

    But that's not how the vast majority of people I know are handling this day. They seem to use it for personal image gain.
    The killing of defenceless, innocent non-combatants. Its a war crime if you believe there's a war on, if you're more in touch with reality its just a plain old crime.

    I dont really care about rememberence or memorials, I probably dont like the things you dont like but if you forget atrocities like 9/11 or make jokes about it you're just in need of a reality check because the guys who were responsible for it havent gone away.

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