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Thread: Misandry

  1. #191
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    The reason your not hearing me bemoan the plight of women is that you already have millions of people doing that very thing.

    I'm bemoaning the lack of any kind power behind growing awareness of mens issues.

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    And you're hearing me say that I think it's a step backwards to continue splitting the issue into male vs. female.

    FWIW, I feel the same about radical feminists.

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  4. #194
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    @DiscoBiscuit, I started writing this on your wall, but I think it'd be better here.

    I agree with your rep. I don't think we actually fundamentally disagree all that much. I just am not sure it's good to continue framing it as a split... like that it creates more issues than it helps correct.

    Like I said, I feel the same way about radical feminism. I don't like it. I am for men's issues but I think they should be condensed with women's issues. I would not be opposed to men's awareness groups, who help raise awareness of the issues men face. I am just worried about men's advocacy groups, the same way I am worried about feminist advocacy groups and racial advocacy groups. It is a very challenging prospect for one group to singly go about improving conditions for their group without hurting others, because, all being from that group, they are not privy to awareness of the struggles that the other groups face. If we were to have male advocacy, which I am not against, just concerned about, it would have to include women to advise how not to step on women while helping men. But that gets complex and with much likelihood of conflict, which is why I feel like we would be better off just consolidating the issues and addressing them all as human rights. Certainly you could play a part as an advocate for men in particular, but in cooperation with those speaking for women in particular, too.

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    And you're hearing me say that I think it's a step backwards to continue splitting the issue into male vs. female.

    FWIW, I feel the same about radical feminists.
    Oh I'm hearing you. Yours just doesn't seem to be the voice of reason that has filtered down into our cultural narrative.

    I appreciate, and to an extent agree with your point. However, as it stands, we don't even have a side in this debate publicly.

    In the News etc.. it is Support women vs. crickets.... When confronted with a cultural force that has grown powerful to the point of dominance, that was started in a way that focussed solely on women's issues (for which I don't begrudge it), it will be more effective to stake out a separate position.

    In a future where mens rights, and feminists represent two equally weighty cultural camps, yes they should view the issues as one in the same.

    Asking men to instead of starting their own separate movement, to join the extant female one, will just keep them from ever establishing that position.

    You are right in a perfect world, idealist utopia kind of way. Yes we should understand that they are two sides of the same coin.

    However in the world in which we live, trying to start a distinct movement is impossible without focusing on just mens issues, as the other side started focused solely on womens issues.

    To have any cultural weight, we need to have a separate movement. That would not be necessary if the general public understood feminism to be geared toward gender issues on both sides.

    Unfortunately, the name feminism and the nature of the views espoused by many (maybe most) of its adherents prevent that from being the case.

  6. #196
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    To clarify, I'm not advocating the kind of gender partisanship you fear.

    Just that for us to have a successful movement, it has to be separate.

    This is only until we are established enough to actually be able to debate with the other side from an equal position.

    Otherwise I fear our concerns would be subsumed if we tried to pursue them under the general aegis of femenism.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit
    You are right in a perfect world, idealist utopia kind of way.
    That is often my problem. I'm a good little idealist!

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    To clarify, I'm not advocating the kind of gender partisanship you fear.

    Just that for us to have a successful movement, it has to be separate.

    This is only until we are established enough to actually be able to debate with the other side from an equal position.

    Otherwise I fear our concerns would be subsumed if we tried to pursue them under the general aegis of femenism.
    I think you are right this, though I'm not sure the groups will ever have linear "equality" to be able to decide when is the best time to combine them - IMO, the sooner, the better. Get women to work on men's rights and men to work on women's, all in cooperation, ASAP.

    I do agree the banner of equality as "feminism" should be dropped. It's well-intentioned, and it once served a more relevant purpose, but it is fundamentally an unequal word.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think you are right this, though I'm not sure the groups will ever have linear "equality" to be able to decide when is the best time to combine them - IMO, the sooner, the better. Get women to work on men's rights and men to work on women's, all in cooperation, ASAP.

    I do agree the banner of equality as "feminism" should be dropped. It's well-intentioned, and it once served a more relevant purpose, but it is fundamentally an unequal word.
    While we agree that it should be one organization, I think we may disagree on the likelihood that ever happening.

    The only way they could be combined without one of the organizations being subsidiary to the other would be if they were relatively equal.

    This though for me is an academic argument. I don't see them ever becoming one organization.

    Absent that, I would prefer to have a group committed to addressing the issues faced by both genders as opposed to just one.

    It would be nice if that name was dropped, but I would not hold my breath waiting for it to happen. I like to consider myself an optimist, but one tempered with a nearly equal dose of realism.

    Thanks for discussing this civilly. These are a series of ideas I haven't had the composure or the latitude (given the nature of these discussions usually) to explore before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It would be nice if that name was dropped, but I would not hold my breath waiting for it to happen. I like to consider myself an optimist, but one tempered with a nearly equal dose of realism.

    Thanks for discussing this civilly. These are a series of ideas I haven't had the composure or the latitude (given the nature of these discussions usually) to explore before.
    Thank you, too, for the same. I haven't previously gotten to speak about this to a man who's interested in the issues, either, and I feel like our native positions were far enough from one another to have really uncovered useful understanding between us.

    I think you are right that you are more the realist. I find it pleasing to cooperate with realists IRL because though I tend to be more the hardliner, you are the ones who turn thought into actuality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I thought this wasn't a contest.

    Can you demonstrate quantitatively that women have if worse?



    So women have it worse, but everyone should care about everyone.

    Getting kind of mixed signals here. Either mens issues are as pressing womens issues, and as important, or women have it worse and we should care about that above and beyond mens issues.

    Which is it?

    Do women have it worse, or are mens issues equally important?

    Stating that women have it worse implies that mens issues aren't as pressing (read important).
    I don't think it needs to be as "bad" for men in order to be taken just as seriously. I'm not sure whether it is or isn't as bad for men as it is for women, but does it really matter? Would a little misandry be okay? Is a little misogyny okay? Being concerned with one issue doesn't have to mean not being concerned with the other...
    You lose.

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