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Thread: Misandry

  1. #181
    Junior Member sporty's Avatar
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    I don't care about food that much, I want her to be there for me when I need someone to hug and kiss. I would call her from work when I feel bored. I find discos/restaurants boring - I want a girl that will come with me to a picnic and lay with me in the grass, and spend the day/night holding hands. Hugging and kissing while watching the clouds/stars. I guess I'm too romantic for my generation (aged 25).

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    You are assuming that most female hikers want pink hiking boots just because they are women. The idea that women all want "cute" things or pink things or "sexy" version of thinks like hiking boots I think is a very narrow, an could even be seen as a bit demeaning, view of women.

    As an adult women who knows other adult women they enjoy a variety of colors.
    You mean we don't need everything to come in pink before it's harmless enough for girlies? Gosh darnit. Someone should tell Bic already. Or Lego.
    Looks like Under Armour noticed.

    How rare is it to see women portrayed like this? Strong, determined, unsmiling, sweating, pushing themselves, falling over and picking themselves up. Why is that? Is it because women don't see themselves this way, or because men don't want to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am arguing this, to a certain extent, and it is not about branding female products, but having them available at all in many cases. I don't think my preferences are all that rare, especially among subsets of women, e.g. women who like hiking and camping. I wonder how many women do buy men's products, thereby skewing data on what women prefer in the products marketed to women. Much purchasing is driven by cost and convenience (what is in stock, or the right size, etc.), especially in items with important practical considerations like outdoor gear. Women purchase from the options presented, which doesn't necessarily mean they prefer them. Manufacturers should be a bit less timid and narrow-minded in what they offer, and stop reinforcing stereotypes unnecessarily.
    I buy "men's" stuff too, where it's superior/cheaper (which it generally is), but the sizes ARE a source of frustration. Why should I be offered ugly pink trainers in my size, while the menz have cool black ones? I'm a grown-up, not a fucking child.

    This is what is known in the trade as the "shrink-it-and-pink-it" approach to designing for women. It's lazy, mindless and thoroughly dismantled in this excellent article. It's not based on genuine market demand, but on inane stereotypes. "91% of women say that advertisers don’t understand them".

    This theme is especially noticeable in the tech gadgets market where women helpfully have their range of products pointed out for them, by making them luminesce or grow fur.

    I don't even think this is a conspiracy. I just think the (overwhelmingly male) advertisers and product designers somehow believe that women are more interested in stroking their gadgets or posing and giggling in front of them than they are in whether they actually work.

    I'm just waiting for them to bring out operating systems for women - themed exclusively in pink, with a fraction of full functionality, for twice the price.

  3. #183
    Member keto chameleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Men who have these qualities (and most have at least some) are often not allowed to develop, enjoy, and share them without being judged or ridiculed.
    I really hope that's not the case and only been your experience or what you have witnessed. I can't say I have been ridiculed for any of those things but judged? maybe.

  4. #184
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    I thought this thread was about misandry.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What you can do, and what anyone who has rare non common preferences can do, is find a specialty store that caters to your needs and pay a little bit more for a specialized product that appeals to a narrower part of the market.

    Are you saying that more women are non gender conforming and therefore the companies should push guy products towards female markets (in female sizes of course)? For the record I don't think you are arguing this.

    Regardless, this seems like an issue that I would file under hassle and not alert the media!!!
    The point is that it's a relatively subconscious and difficult-to-stop cycle of pushed correlations that conditions women and men towards certain preferences. It impacts boys, too, boys and their blue clothing and Tonka trucks. The point is that we unintentionally are open to manipulation and manipulate others because we do not analyze and question the nature of our preferences and actions, and as a result we sacrifice freedom of choice. It's generally more limiting to women, in terms of gender dichotomy, because there are more spoken, evident "prescriptions" for us - more elaborate specifications, more changes we are expected to make to our natural bodies, like makeup and heels. Other elements are equal between the genders or more forced on men. The point is that if we don't take the precious time out of our lives to actively and consciously look at what we are doing, we fall prey to patterns that may harm ourselves and others. And I don't know about you, but I'm not into wasting my time writing letters to companies to make more shoe options or wasting my money on specialty outlets when I could be doing something more enjoyable with my life and my income, so I'm an advocate of change.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit
    I thought this thread was about misandry.
    The thread is about misandry and the issue relates to misandry because all sorts of unfairness goes hand-in-hand. When we limit women, we make the equal and opposite implication about men. Men should be concerned about women's gender struggles not only because it is compassionate, but also because it is silently enforcing the same ideals upon men. The idea that people should be told what to wear and told what to like beyond what benefits them personally is problematic for everyone. If we all take up the mantle of desiring change, we all benefit. The male creative designer who envisions practical, tough, durable, protective hiking boots for both genders also silently opens the door for men who would rather choose aesthetic, lightweight, brightly-colored shoes. Misandry or misogyny alone is an illusion. To stand for the freedom of one gender is to stand for the freedom of both.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It's generally more limiting to women, in terms of gender dichotomy, because there are more "prescriptions" for us - more elaborate specifications, more changes we need to make to our natural bodies, like makeup and heels. Other elements are equal between the genders or more forced on men.
    I thought this wasn't a contest.

    Can you demonstrate quantitatively that women have if worse?

    The thread is about misandry and the issue relates to misandry because all sorts of unfairness goes hand-in-hand. When we limit women, we make the equal and opposite implication about men. Men should be concerned about women's gender struggles not only because it is compassionate, but also because it is silently enforcing the same ideals upon men. The idea that people should be told what to wear and told what to like beyond what benefits them personally is problematic for everyone.
    So women have it worse, but everyone should care about everyone.

    Getting kind of mixed signals here. Either mens issues are as pressing womens issues, and as important, or women have it worse and we should care about that above and beyond mens issues.

    Which is it?

    Do women have it worse, or are mens issues equally important?

    Stating that women have it worse implies that mens issues aren't as pressing (read important).

  7. #187
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    @DiscoBiscuit, I am saying that men's issues and women's issues are the same thing.

    They tend to manifest more visibly in relation to women because of the historical power structure of patriarchy.

    If you happen to see it, in your life, more in men's realms, that's cool. It doesn't change anything.

    Discrimination is discrimination.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    @DiscoBiscuit, I am saying that men's issues and women's issues are the same thing.

    They tend to manifest more visibly in relation to women because of the historical power structure of patriarchy.
    The key word in that sentence is historical.

    Which gender is more likely to go to college?

    Which is more likely to be employed out of college?

    For all the talk of patriarchy, we seem to be in the midst of its downfall.

    I would counter that mens issues are worsening because of a cultural focus on womens issues for the last 30 years.

    The focus on womens issues, has produced a lack of focus on mens issues. I would also argue that that cultural focus is tearing down patriarchy brick by brick.

    I would argue that most of the issues highlighted as evidence of patriarchy, lack of females with their hands on the levels of power (CEO's etc.) is the result of the advanced ages of those in those positions.

    Those in their 50's 60's and 70's well cling to cultural ideas more antiquated than those in their 20s 30s and 40s.

    At the lower levels, where people are younger, women are dominating men in the work place.

    In the legal sphere, we have no fault divorce laws, custody is customarily given to the woman, marital rape is a crime etc.....

    Culturally, we've been on a wave of girl power since at least the early 90's.

    Take those advances into consideration, and take into consideration what young men are facing vs. young women in education and work environments, and sure we can have a meeting of the minds.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I would counter that mens issues are worsening because of a cultural focus on womens issues for the last 30 years.
    I would agree that anyone singly focusing on either side is worsening the overall environment.

    However, 30 years ago, women were so much more limited that starting with them made sense.

    I have no problem saying it's high time to focus on men's issues too.

    I just don't want that done at the expense of women, and for that to be avoided, men must be aware of and acknowledge that women still face significant barriers in many areas that men do not, and also that it may be hard for a man to understand the barriers women face, having never experienced life through a woman's eyes before.

    The same is true for women in acknowledgement of men, but in general women have lived in male-dominated cultures for many centuries, and it has long been expected of women to anticipate and meet men's needs, thus it is already interwoven into much of our culture at present.

    Essentially, I'm hearing a lot of "men are falling behind and need to be protected" from you, but I'm not hearing much "women are also behind in this area and we will ensure that we are not strengthening men at the expense of women in this way".

    In some ways, the fact that we have men worried about their rights and opportunities speaks to an environment that is becoming more equal. It is simply imperative that we all remain conscious, open, and egalitarian -

    aware that we are fundamentally on the same side.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I would agree that anyone singly focusing on either side is worsening the overall environment.

    However, 30 years ago, women were so much more limited that starting with them made sense.

    I have no problem saying it's high time to focus on men's issues too.

    I just don't want that done at the expense of women, and for that to be avoided, men must be aware of and acknowledge that women still face significant barriers in many areas that men do not.

    You have thus far demonstrated essentially zero awareness or acknowledgement of that.
    We are told to be aware by what we see on TV, we have to go to HR sexual harassment seminars, we have to go to college rape orientations to be unaware a man would have to literally live under a rock...

    You have awareness, I'm asking for awareness of our issues. Specifically, that options for men have become more limited than they were. The most fucked up thing, is that in the cultural sphere the assumption seems to be that men aren't deserving of the same kinds of consideration.

    You have awareness.

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