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Thread: Misandry

  1. #131
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Does it exist? Is it a legitimate concern? Is it getting worse, or better? Is it even worth talking about?
    I think it's worth talking about, but I don't think it's a problem. It's no more of a problem than people treating each other badly in general. I think misandry from the point of view of a woman has more to do with fear, and that really only hurts her. If she uses it to treat a man badly, that's unfortunate, but not evidence of anything on the level of societal oppression of women. It's just in no way comparable.

  2. #132
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think it's worth talking about, but I don't think it's a problem. It's no more of a problem than people treating each other badly in general. I think misandry from the point of view of a woman has more to do with fear, and that really only hurts her. If she uses it to treat a man badly, that's unfortunate, but not evidence of anything on the level of societal oppression of women. It's just in no way comparable.
    Gender bias is always worth talking about, is always a problem, and affects both men and women. Some instances affecting men are driven by misandry (hatred, dislike, distrust of men), but as with bias against women, these are not the only possible motivations. To the extent that women working for gender equity start to view men with hate, even as "the enemy", it is worth calling out because it just undermines their very valid goals. From what I see, it is a small minority who do this, but they can be vocal, obnoxious, counterproductive, and give real [whatever you call people who want gender equity] a bad name. It thus bears discussion disproportionate to the numbers of people involved.
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  3. #133
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    From what I see, it is a small minority who do this, but they can be vocal, obnoxious, counterproductive, and give real [whatever you call people who want gender equity] a bad name. It thus bears discussion disproportionate to the numbers of people involved.
    Agreed.
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  4. #134
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Gender bias is always worth talking about, is always a problem, and affects both men and women. Some instances affecting men are driven by misandry (hatred, dislike, distrust of men), but as with bias against women, these are not the only possible motivations. To the extent that women working for gender equity start to view men with hate, even as "the enemy", it is worth calling out because it just undermines their very valid goals. From what I see, it is a small minority who do this, but they can be vocal, obnoxious, counterproductive, and give real [whatever you call people who want gender equity] a bad name. It thus bears discussion disproportionate to the numbers of people involved.
    It's a small problem, but it's not big enough for me to consider significant. It's important on a local scale, relating to individuals, but it's not a societal concern in my opinion.

    From a similar thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Each person has both feminine and masculine (as well as neutral) energy, yin and yang. We can't have true equality and harmony until both are developed equally. This means that males and females and those of undefined gender need to treat each other with respect as well as develop the different sides of themselves. How we treat each gender reflects how we treat that aspect of ourselves. Men can't truly respect women until they (are allowed to) appreciate their feminine side, and women can't truly connect with men until they embrace their masculine side. The converse is also true; women can't truly embrace their masculine side until they can trust and love men as people. Absolutely, men should be allowed to express as much gender associated variability as women, and it is damaging when they are not. It hurts feminist goals in many ways.
    I see what people are saying, and I do agree that men deserve the same consideration as women in terms of liberation from oppressive roles and from hatred and mistreatment. However, misandry does not negate or devalue feminism.

    And I think simple distrust of men is not on par with sexism. It can be a problem for intimate relationships and can fuel hatred and damaging behavior, not to mention fostering a poor self image in men, but in an individual it is often a natural and healthy response to certain experiences. Women are entitled to fear men for periods in their lives, just as people are entitled to fear heights or spiders or whatever. Men are entitled to fear women. It becomes a problem when this fear and healthy distrust is not properly processed, and instead of the individual using it as a learning experience and moving on to healthier attitudes to have long term, it serves to alienate and antagonize. Trust is a complex issue.

  5. #135
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think it's worth talking about, but I don't think it's a problem. It's no more of a problem than people treating each other badly in general. I think misandry from the point of view of a woman has more to do with fear, and that really only hurts her. If she uses it to treat a man badly, that's unfortunate, but not evidence of anything on the level of societal oppression of women. It's just in no way comparable.
    To clarify, I'm not talking as much about "distrust" of men as actual hatred. I know there are plenty of women who've had bad experiences, and I can understand where they're coming from when they try to protect themselves from potentially dangerous men. But there are also women who flat out hate men. I've seen them plenty; not a lot in my personal life, (I'm not sure if that's because I just naturally don't associate with those people, or if it's some other reason) but I've seen them online, in books, etc. I don't doubt other men have had to deal with them. I'm not trying to suggest misandry is a bigger problem, or even as big as misogyny, only that it certainly does exist, and I wanted to know others' experiences with it. Sexism in general is the real problem.

    Here's an article from the Huffington Post detailing what I described, written from a woman's perspective (disregard the usage of the word feminism; it isn't necessarily self-described feminists who are guilty of this behavior):

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/octa...b_3292843.html
    Last edited by freeeekyyy; 09-24-2013 at 10:30 PM. Reason: added link
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  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    To clarify, I'm not talking as much about "distrust" of men as actual hatred. I know there are plenty of women who've had bad experiences, and I can understand where they're coming from when they try to protect themselves from potentially dangerous men. But there are also women who flat out hate men. I've seen them plenty; not a lot in my personal life, (I'm not sure if that's because I just naturally don't associate with those people, or if it's some other reason) but I've seen them online, in books, etc. I don't doubt other men have had to deal with them. I'm not trying to suggest misandry is a bigger problem, or even as big as misogyny, only that it certainly does exist, and I wanted to know others' experiences with it. Sexism in general is the real problem.
    Agreed.

    I've met a small number of women like this. One kept talking out of both sides of her mouth, about how we need to love and trust men, and then making sexist jokes. She was running a women's empowerment program too, and it was clear that she was definitely not healed from her traumatic experiences. She did a lot of good, but in some ways was counter productive.

  7. #137
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It's a small problem, but it's not big enough for me to consider significant. It's important on a local scale, relating to individuals, but it's not a societal concern in my opinion.
    The significance lies as much in how it undermines constructive feminism as in how it impacts individual men.
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  8. #138
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post

    I see what people are saying, and I do agree that men deserve the same consideration as women in terms of liberation from oppressive roles and from hatred and mistreatment. However, misandry does not negate or devalue feminism.
    Absolutely not. This is my issue with MRAs.

    And I think simple distrust of men is not on par with sexism. It can be a problem for intimate relationships and can fuel hatred and damaging behavior, not to mention fostering a poor self image in men, but in an individual it is often a natural and healthy response to certain experiences. Women are entitled to fear men for periods in their lives, just as people are entitled to fear heights or spiders or whatever. Men are entitled to fear women. It becomes a problem when this fear and healthy distrust is not properly processed, and instead of the individual using it as a learning experience and moving on to healthier attitudes to have long term, it serves to alienate and antagonize. Trust is a complex issue.
    I don't think anyone owes anyone trust. I'm a little suspicious myself (tertiary Si). I understand not having trust.

    I do think some women expect tolerance for things they don't tolerate in men, though. I think that's misandry. If making gendered insults is unacceptable for men, it should also be unacceptable for women. If a man shouldn't call a woman a bitch , women shouldn't call men pussies.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  9. #139
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    I see it as part of hate in general, and just another shade of maltreatment.

    What I do understand is that sometimes it becomes hard to separate the individual from systemic discrimination, which gets messy.

    Consider this: I dunno if you guys have ever noticed this, but at least where I live, it's essentially impossible for a woman to buy just-deodorant from the drugstore - it's all antiperspirant-deodorant, whereas men are generally offered many options in both deodorant and anti-perspirant deodorant. The implication would seem to be that it is not okay for a woman to sweat, and it's notable that the ingredients in many antiperspirants tend to be more irritating to skin than the ingredients in just-deodorants. If you ask me, that's a form of systematic discrimination. I'm imagine it's not explicitly intentional on anyone's part - even the financial execs of the companies are just trying to sell whatever consumers will buy most of - but it is unequally limiting to women.

    So, after doing my research on the chemicals, and subsequently discovering that I had very few feminine options (and wondering, why is the deodorant section so divided, anyway? Are flower/fruit scents naturally more female, and musk/wood/aquatic scents naturally more male, or is that a sociocultural thing?), I voice to my ISFJ that I might want to try a masculine-scented deodorant. Now, in general, my ISFJ is very equal, very respectful, very open to reconsidering gender bias, and overwhelmingly an ally against misogyny. But he said to me: "I'd really rather you not smell like a man." And I went OFF.

    Let's break this down:

    1. I have never previously given second thought to the gender division of deodorant. Ever since I started wearing deodorant around age 12, I have always chosen from the "feminine" half of the selections, and have not given two shits about it over all those years.

    2. I like the scents of women's deodorant better in general, and would prefer to wear a "feminine" scent. Is this because I have been socioculturally trained to like fruity/floral smells and to associate with them? I have no idea.

    3. Assuming it is sociocultural, would I be willing to "retrain" myself to be more neutral in the name of equality? Fuck, no, I am not wasting my time with that. I am not willing to put in the effort to change my own bias, so is it fair of me to desire the same from the other gender? My ISFJ didn't choose to be conditioned to like woody scents any more than I did to like floral scents.

    4. I would rather have a "feminine" scented just-deodorant, but I couldn't find one that worked, so essentially I actually agreed with my ISFJ even though what he said sounded like biased BS to me at the time.

    5. I don't have a problem with my ISFJ asking me to smell a certain way to suit his preference. I'm not overwhelmingly specific about fragrance and I'm sure it'd be pretty easy for us to find a compromise in most cases.

    6. It frustrated me that the designation he used was "like a man", not "like musk and wood", but I knew he was just using verbal shorthand and he wasn't intending on putting me in a gender box.

    7. If the ingredients weren't harmful to my skin, I'd rather have an antiperspirant-deodorant. So not only is my frustration with the fragrance sort of pointless, because I'd rather smell like flowers anyway, but my frustration with the deodorant is sort of pointless, because I'd rather wear antiperspirant anyway.


    I think it basically boils down to frustration that certain types of cosmetic were prescribed to the genders, both type and scent, and I think that is a fair contention. If they had all been mixed in, and not gender-identified, then I wouldn't have perceived the situation as a privileged man asking me to not wear a scent he likes for himself because it's not socially prescribed for me - rather, I would have been faced with my significant other asking me to not wear a scent he doesn't find attractive.

    In any case, it's really not my ISFJ's fault it came across that way, not any more than it is mine for never having noticed this disparity before. He grew up with these biases the same way I did and he's integrated them into his way of thinking, too, and it just so happened that I was ripped away from one of mine due to a minor aberrance in expected response (ie, me and women's antiperspirant-deodorant didn't get along like we were supposed to). My personal experience exposed me to an unfair situation and I suddenly became aware that he was taking part in the systematic discrimination - even though, up until that moment of realization, so was I. And I would have continued to do so, were it not for that.

    Anyway, I think this sort of situation probably happens to "feminists" a lot.

    Just goes to show we should all try to educate ourselves more and judge one another less.

  10. #140
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    What worries me is that there is zero cultural salience for mens issues.

    The biggest breakthrough we've had thus far, are the spate of articles regarding the achievement gap between men and women in education.

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