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Thread: Misandry

  1. #101
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownUser View Post
    I agree with people who have said it doesn't exist. Most prejudice towards men tends to stem from factors other than their gender (like their race or social status) or it tends to come from the fact that they don't adhere to those gender roles... in which case, it's usually because patriarchy determines that a man acting in a way that isn't stereotypically masculine is demeaning, because not being a man by whichever standards society has is demeaning. It's not something that specifically targets men because they're men, which would be the definition of misandry as a prejudice applied to men.
    The inherent flaw in your arguement seems to be that "patriarchy = men". Men can be victims of sexism just as women can, it doesnt matter whos purpotrating that sexism. And its really not solely a question of class struggle, as people seem to think. Power, like sexism, can happen to groups as well as to individuals. You seem to think sexism is only a group/class struggle thing, and this is seeing things through the lens of Marxist Dialectic/polictal correctness, ie the belief that all groups which are currently disfavored are somehow special, since at the end of history they will take the power from those who currently detain it.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Are you sure you're an NT?
    I was waiting for that, would it be appropriate to describe all feelers as manic depressives? If that seems wrong then perhaps the sort of burgeoning overanalysis is not a thinking trait, infact I believe there is something other than thinking driving it most of the time.

  3. #103
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    Misogyny is a real problem, and obviously there are men guilty of it. John Lennon is right, "Woman is the n*gg*r of the world." I am not claiming this isn't a real problem; however, what makes me even more sick is the fact that women play into it just as much as men.

    I'm aware that in some parts of the world, circumstances are worse for women than others, but I will talk about America, where I live. In America there are still issues with womens' rights, but in my experience women are not doing their best to obtain the equal social status we deserve. Here are some examples.

    - I don't watch TV but I've been subject to Sex in the City by roommates - which is a show about women who are supposedly professional and successful. When they get together, almost all they talk about is men. Their whole lives are about how to get the guy. The reason the show is popular s because people relate to it - it is a reflection of reality for many people. However, in my reality, while there are periods when I'm very obsessed with a man and talk about him a lot, and ditto with my female friends, there are also periods when we discuss our jobs, work, dreams, families, personal choices or dilemmas, interests, self-reflection etc. I don't see much of this being exemplified in pop culture but what do I know - I don't watch tv, or concern myself with that whole mentality. However one thing I know is that more women watch that show than men; therefore I blame women for creating this culture, relating to it, appreciating it and perpetuating it.

    - Sometimes I'll go out with a group of people and the women only respond when the men talk. These are the same women who complain most about misogyny.

    - Some women cake themselves in makeup and foundation on their faces and walk around in high heels that hurt their feet, and then complain that things aren't equal. If you wear shoes you can kick ass in, even with thick heels, then you have a better chance of kicking ass or at least running from danger, simply put. By treating yourself as a sex object instead of a person you are perpetuating the cycle. And it is very possible to be extraordinarily sexy without losing what makes you capable and strong. To add to this, most (decent) men find it sexier when a woman is comfortable, strong and solid, and has a little more weight to her; but women dress like barbie dolls to impress *other women.* Why is this impressive and why would anyone want to impress someone else who is perpetuating the idea that being unable to run and climb and kick ass in your own shoes is sexy?


    .... I can go on listing examples of this and write a whole book, but I think this gets the gist across. These women who perpetuate misogyny are the same ones who get treated like objects by men, and don't have real male friends who value them for their minds, because they present themselves as some kind of wind-up toy built to attract a date, and male friends or suitors cannot take them seriously. Then they end up perpetuating misogyny as well as spreading misandry.

    If you don't like misogyny, then don't act like an object, be yourself, be true to yourself and defend yourself and be proud of who you are instead of hating men. Fight for the rights you want that aren't equal, but do so with self-respect, and respect for any person who treats you like an equal regardless of their gender. In turn men will respect your strength and love you for who you are, platonically and romantically. If someone is a misogynist then don't date him and don't be friends with him; you are free of misogyny and open to find a man who can appreciate you as a human being. Problem solved. If you can't change the world, you can at least start by being the change you wish to see in the world. It is not a fool-proof philosophy; you will not entirely escape the existence of misogyny and misandry, but it will drastically reduce its presence in your life and that of your friends.
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  4. #104
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I agree with you that misandry is just as big a problem as misogyny
    however, while there is nothing wrong with a "nice guy". the problem is
    - lots of the guys who say they're "nice" really aren't
    - they assume that being nice was the reason they were rejected (truth is, they were rejected because the woman didn't think they were sexy)
    This also goes both ways. Many men and women are turned off by someone predictable and available, especially when they're young, because deep down they don't want something to work out; they are more excited by a chase. This is not a problem specific to any gender. Bad girls and bad boys get more attention romantically. That doesn't mean they're necessarily getting the kind of attention that would lead to a working marriage, though.
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  5. #105
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    From realclearpolitics...

    Yes, Patriarchy Is Dead; the Feminists Prove It

    When writer Hanna Rosin recently published an article on Slate.com stating that “the patriarchy is dead,” much of the feminist response amounted to “burn the heretic!” New Republic editor and blogger Nora Caplan-Bricker accused Rosin of “mansplaining” -- the femosphere’s pejorative term for supposedly obtuse and arrogant male arguments on gender, apparently now also applied to female dissent -- and being the patriarchy’s unwitting tool. San Jose State University philosophy professor Janet Stemwedel tweeted her gloating over Rosin’s Wikipedia page being vandalized to read, for a brief time, “Hanna Rosin (born 1970) is a terrible human being.”

    Ironically, the feminist tendency to shoot the bringer of good news was the very topic of Rosin’s essay, adapted from the new epilogue to the paperback edition of her book “The End of Men” -- which, despite its title, is more about female ascendance than male decline. Rosin noted with bemusement that rebuttals to her report on women’s rising fortunes were greeted with palpable relief -- not by male chauvinists but by feminists. (It isn’t just Rosin: When a recent study demonstrated that female political candidates are not judged more negatively than male ones, not even for their looks and dress, feminists reacted with either silence or sniping.)

    So where is this dreaded American patriarchy Rosin is covering up? Some critiques of her argument boil down to “it’s only affluent white women who are doing well” (and poor minority men are presumably basking in privilege). A gentleman critic, fellow Slate.com author Matthew Yglesias, cites men’s numerical dominance in corporate America -- as if Rosin might be unaware of these statistics. (One figure he omits: Women control 60 percent of the wealth in the United States.) But mostly, Rosin’s detractors focus on women’s abuse by men and on pervasive cultural biases against women, from beauty pressures to so-called “slut-shaming.” Patriarchy, says Caplan-Bricker, is “living in a society where both women and men save their harshest judgment for women.”

    Do they, though? Such nebulous statements are nearly impossible to prove or disprove. Actually, researchers such as feminist social psychologist Alice Eagly of Northwestern University have consistently found that both sexes tend to view women more positively than men. Sure, this pro-female bias has its flip side: Women’s perceived “niceness” may cause them to be seen as less fit for leadership and to be penalized for not being nice. But crude generalizations about misogyny bear little relation to real life in modern Western society.

    Gender-based biases are not a one-way street. If women are still stigmatized more for sleeping around, men are stigmatized more for not having enough sex -- even by some feminists whose choice insult for sexist men is to imply sexual deprivation. Women may experience more disapproval for delegating child care; men, for failing to be providers. We can endlessly debate whether these norms are rooted in nature or culture and whether they are valuable or harmful (or some mix of both). The fact remains that such double standards are not only perpetuated by men and women alike but, in this day and age, at least as likely to be favorable to women as to men.

    It’s really not that hard to find instances in which men are judged more harshly than women. Last May, after Arizona woman Jodi Arias was convicted in the brutal murder of her ex-boyfriend, jurors deadlocked on the death sentence because some saw mitigation in her alleged mental and verbal abuse by her victim -- despite evidence that Arias was a habitual stalker. Around the same time, when novelist James Lasdun published a book about his nightmarish experience of being cyber-stalked by a former creative writing student whose romantic overtures he had rejected, a review in The New Yorker chided him for failing to admit his attraction to the woman and his role in leading her on. Reverse the genders in either case, and there would be howls of outrage about “victim-blaming.” (Both incidents are also reminders that women aren’t the only victims of abuse and violence from the opposite sex.)

    Ultimately, the examples of patriarchy at work offered in responses to Rosin prove her point. They consist of complex issues oversimplified into a war on women (such as proposed abortion limits, which women in some cases support more than men); outlandish exaggerations (women can’t walk down the street without getting groped or catcalled); culturally marginal irrelevancies (some ultraconservative Catholic group advising against college education for women); or grievances so petty that it’s hard to tell if they’re satirical or serious. A list of “39 Things We’ll Miss About Patriarchy, Which Is Dead” on New York magazine’s website included “vibrators shaped like cupcakes,” public restroom lines, and men hogging space on public transit. And several writers mentioned “Titstare” -- an incident both trivial and revealing of strong societal disapproval of even mild sexism.

    “Titstare,” if you were lucky enough to miss the brouhaha, was a joke presentation by two Australian techies at the TechCrunch Disrupt “hackathon” earlier this month: a smartphone app for men to share photos of themselves ogling women’s breasts. While the 60-second demo featured nothing more graphic than a couple of cleavage shots, it was certainly a bad joke -- though arguably mostly at the expense of leering men (complete with a comic-style image of a man getting punched by a woman). But none of the commentators who cited this juvenile stunt as evidence of rampant misogyny saw fit to acknowledge that it was promptly followed by apologies from the two TechCrunch runners -- one of them a woman, as were two of the five hackathon judges -- and a pledge to pre-screen submissions more carefully at future events. If this ends up on a list of patriarchal offenses, one may start wondering if feminism has any real battles to fight.

    Which, actually, isn’t quite what Rosin was saying. When we spoke a few days after the publication of her article, she stressed that problems do exist -- but focusing on “patriarchy” as “an enemy we can take down” is a counterproductive distraction from the real issues. Foremost among those is the career-family conundrum. Take the progress of women in the tech industry: For all the handwringing about Titstare as a symptom of the sexism holding them back, the evidence suggests that it’s hardly the main obstacle. In one study, women with advanced degrees in science, technology and engineering were 25 percent less likely than men to work in their field if they were married and raising children -- but there was no gender gap for the single and childless.

    Some sex differences in work and family roles may always persist; but we should certainly continue to work toward more flexibility, freedom, and options for everyone. Rosin believes these goals should be redefined as care-giving issues for both sexes rather than “women’s issues,” and here she is certainly on the right track, even if her favored solutions are probably more government-oriented than mine would be.

    More broadly, I am convinced that if feminism is to have a positive future, it must reinvent itself as a gender equity movement advocating for both sexes and against all sexism. Focusing solely on female disadvantage was perfectly understandable when, whatever paternalistic benefits women might have enjoyed and whatever burdens men might have suffered, women were the ones lacking the basic rights of adult citizens. But today, there is simply no moral or rational justification for any fair-minded feminist to ignore (for instance) the more lenient treatment of female offenders in the justice system or the anti-father biases in family courts. The concept of feminism as equality of the sexes is increasingly on a collision course with feminism as a movement championing women.

    In its present form -- as a secular cult that should call itself the Sisters of Perpetual Grievance -- feminism is far more a part of the problem than part of the solution. It clings to women’s wrongs and turns women’s rights into narcissistic entitlement. It is far too easily prone to bashing men while painting women as insultingly helpless and downplaying their human capacity for cruelty. (The notion that abuse and dominance would not exist without patriarchy is not only naively utopian but utterly sexist.) It is also deeply irrelevant to most women, only 5 percent of whom consider themselves “strong feminists,” even though 82 percent believe that men and women should be social, political, and economic equals.

    Of course the patriarchy -- at least here in the West -- is dead. Whether feminism deserves to survive it is up to the feminists.

  6. #106
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I was waiting for that, would it be appropriate to describe all feelers as manic depressives? If that seems wrong then perhaps the sort of burgeoning overanalysis is not a thinking trait, infact I believe there is something other than thinking driving it most of the time.
    It might be more of an introverted NT thing, to be fair. I don't know very much about the extraverted NTs, and I suspect they are hidden all around me.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #107
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    STFU ASSHOLES.

    I can't be dealing with all the hateraid in this thread. So I'll just post the insights of others, for those who are not yet too far gone to look at the issue dispassionately.


  8. #108
    morose bourgeoisie
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    This place…I liked it better when I couldn't access it.So much useless twisting.
    If a black man called me a 'cracker' it wouldn't offend me, because it has no historically based emotional charge for me, being a white male, born and raised in racial privilege.
    If I called him nigger, it would be much more likely to be perceived as a insult, given its historical 'weight' in 'Merka for blacks.
    Gender relations are similar structured. Men cannot claim victimhood while simultaneously looking through the lens of power.
    I for one have never felt victimized in the least for being a man.

  9. #109
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I would prefer to learn what YOUR thoughs are, unless I am to assume you agree with everything in the article you quoted . . .
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #110
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Overall, a lot of the discussion here looks to me like another product of the perception that sexual rights are a zero-sum game that pit men and women against each other. Discrimination happens against both, and is negative for both, and should be addressed on a case by case basis. If it happens to be a problem for one women more than men, well the proof will be in the pudding then, we will know because we attempted to address everything on a case by case basis.

    It's perhaps to idealistic to hope for such a thing, but I think these problems are really only reduced by the undermining of the concept of gender duality altogether.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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