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View Poll Results: Is Equality Possible?

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  • Yes

    8 50.00%
  • No

    8 50.00%
  • Apathy

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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What would true equality even look like?

    Would we need to take all children away from their parents at birth so as to not convey an unfair advantage on children whose parents read more to them, or have a larger vocabulary?

    Would we then need some gov't approved child raising method by which every one enjoys the same environmental factors so that no one has the advantage of being born to very involved parents?

    I believe everyone should have the opportunity to succeed. It is up to no one but them to decide whether they take advantage of that opportunity.
    We could, perhaps, ensure that everyone who is willing to work has work and is paid a living wage and/or improve our safety net, and we could work to make sure that all children have access to excellent education, high quality childcare, and early education. We could increase subsidies for things that have been shown to improve the quality of life for people instead of things that enrich a small portion of the population while harming a larger portion. Or maybe split them between the two. (Healthy foods and breast-feeding, rather than corn syrup and infant formula -- though I'm fine with providing formula to mothers that do not want to or can't breastfeed, providing support and incentives equally to those that can and do would be a good idea).

    As long as the government is working for the highest bidder, inequality is only going to continue to grow, along with the loss of opportunities to 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.'
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #22
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    But all governments world-wide? Tribes where women are sacrificed and female children less valued?
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    We could, perhaps, ensure that everyone who is willing to work has work
    How do you propose to force private firms to hire? How do you plan to achieve the above without wrecking capitalism?

    Or are you insinuating that the government should institute economic policies that would make the economy grow fast enough to increase hiring?

    and is paid a living wage
    What is a living wage to you? When firms can only afford to hire 3 workers at $15 an hour instead of the 6 they used to employ and will pay to automate the other three jobs, what plan do you have for the other three jobless workers?

    and/or improve our safety net
    How? And with what money?

    and we could work to make sure that all children have access to excellent education, high quality childcare, and early education.
    With what money? What qualifies as excellent education? What about vouchers and charters? Would you do this solely through the public school system? If so.. how?

    Where is the money going to come from to institute the kinds of child care and early education you imagine?

    We could increase subsidies for things that have been shown to improve the quality of life for people instead of things that enrich a small portion of the population while harming a larger portion.
    Please expound on this. What subsidies do you want to increase, and which do you want to decrease?

    Or maybe split them between the two. (Healthy foods and breast-feeding, rather than corn syrup and infant formula -- though I'm fine with providing formula to mothers that do not want to or can't breastfeed, providing support and incentives equally to those that can and do would be a good idea).
    Where is the money going to come from?

    As long as the government is working for the highest bidder, inequality is only going to continue to grow, along with the loss of opportunities to 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.'
    Clarify.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How do you propose to force private firms to hire? How do you plan to achieve the above without wrecking capitalism?
    It doesn't have to be private firms. There is a lot infrastructure work that needs doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Or are you insinuating that the government should institute economic policies that would make the economy grow fast enough to increase hiring?
    Insinuating . . . that's . . . do I insinuate? I thought I was pretty clear about my thoughts on this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What is a living wage to you? When firms can only afford to hire 3 workers at $15 an hour instead of the 6 they used to employ and ill pay to automate the other three jobs, what plan do you have for the other three jobless workers?
    Afford? You mean like a small company with only a small number of employees or one that is not profitable? If a company can afford a living wage (two people working full-time can reasonably expect to pay for safe, weather-proof housing, basic utilities, food, basic clothing, healthcare, and transportation in the area where they work), then they should pay it. If a company is making hundreds of millions of dollars in profits, they can afford it. Small businesses, businesses just starting out, and struggling businesses I can see being given a break.


    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How? And with what money?
    We could start with companies that are huge, highly profitable and have a negative tax liability. GE, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    With what money? What qualifies as excellent education? What about vouchers and charters? Would you do this solely through the public school system? If so.. how?
    Tax money. We could try something like the way Finland does things because it seems to be working. I think it would save us money down the road in healthcare, safety net costs, and the penal system. Vouchers and charters don't seem to be especially effective, but as long as they are not run for profit and preform well, they could be an okay option. The thing is, they tend to cherry pick their students. The students who do not get cherry picked should not lose out because of loss of funding due to money being funneled away to for-profit companies that run charters and private schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Where is the money going to come from to institute the kinds of child care and early education you imagine?
    Pre-Regan era tax rates, closing corporate tax loopholes/reducing corporate welfare, reallocating from the defense budget.


    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Please expound on this. What subsidies do you want to increase, and which do you want to decrease?
    Say increase subsidies to people that grow things like broccoli and other vegetables and decrease subsidies to people that grow wheat and corn and livestock.



    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Where is the money going to come from?
    I don't know, but we've been managing to subsidize farmers generously for some time, so it could come from there. That's what a goodly chunk of the Farm Bill actually is, right? They split up the Farm Bill so they could keep the cash flowing to the farmers while the duked out how much to cut food stamps, if I understand correctly.



    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Clarify.
    Countries with the best social mobility also tend to have more economic equality. I don't think that's a coincidence.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqcues Le Paul View Post
    This leads to another sadly, what is inequality?

    Who can say what it is and Why can they say it?
    This reminds me of a really cool series of documentaries I saw recently on the subject "Why poverty?". and the one i'm linking now overviewed the history of poverty and "what is poverty". You might find it interesting:

    I liked the topic of your video because when I was a child I wanted to fight hunger in the world and poverty. I wanted to make it my life's mission to fight inequality and social injustice.
    Now I'm about to hit 30 and recently I've been contemplating on my childhood's dreams. I guess during my teenage years and 20s I tried different ways to approach the problem, but they all let to dead ends. And then I had to protect myself and make a living for myself, so I wonder if and how far I got side-tracked or disillusioned. So your topic makes me re-think about this whole (personal) issue.
    I'm going to answer that we can't reach equality, unfortunately. Mostly I don't know how equality can be reached and I guess my post here is more of a "cry for help" or request for suggestions, ideas, etc, on how we could possibly strive for it.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    This reminds me of a really cool series of documentaries I saw recently on the subject "Why poverty?". and the one i'm linking now overviewed the history of poverty and "what is poverty". You might find it interesting:

    I liked the topic of your video because when I was a child I wanted to fight hunger in the world and poverty. I wanted to make it my life's mission to fight inequality and social injustice.
    Now I'm about to hit 30 and recently I've been contemplating on my childhood's dreams. I guess during my teenage years and 20s I tried different ways to approach the problem, but they all let to dead ends. And then I had to protect myself and make a living for myself, so I wonder if and how far I got side-tracked or disillusioned. So your topic makes me re-think about this whole (personal) issue.
    I'm going to answer that we can't reach equality, unfortunately. Mostly I don't know how equality can be reached and I guess my post here is more of a "cry for help" or request for suggestions, ideas, etc, on how we could possibly strive for it.
    Some ideas for "prescriptions", which provide some descriptions of what the problem is too, I'd recommend are in the books Sane Society and To Have or To Be? Both by Erich Fromm, he makes recommendations in The Revolution of Hope too, mainly organisational I think, he had high hopes for private members clubs organised with a shared vision. Both books talk about structural reforms or changes, also cultural I believe, but Fromm also had a book published The Art of Being, which was a collection of suggestions with individually or personally people could undertake, it was published after his death I believe and was a first draft of To Have or To Be? But he had with held it because he wanted to make the point that he believed social structures generate social character and not vice versa so he didnt believe that individuals reforming their character would produce the sort of change necessary.

    For the basic personal, cultural, structural definition of oppression and resisting it there's Neil Thompson, its a book and theory for social workers but anyone could find it informative, he writes a lot about the "liberation ideologies", ie opposing racism, sexism, disablism, there's another book by a different author on anti-oppressive practice, or AOP, which takes up the theme of "othering", turning people into faceless, nameless "others" which can be despised, degraded etc.

    There's lots of "how to campaign" books out there if you're interested in that alone, there's never been any left or egalitarian equivalent of Claire Wolfe's 101 things to do until the revolution, they are interesting for seeing how the more violent capitalists would take their ideas from theory to practice, interesting even if you dont share the vision, like Abbie Hoffman's Steal This Book.

    I cant say that I've had any disillusionment but I've adapted my ideas and thinking over time, anyone who doesnt is a fool, the central concern with equality and injustice hasnt gone away and has remained constant, it has been for generations in my family to be honest.

  7. #27
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Equality in right is possible, equality in fact is not possible, except by forcefully making everyone equal. Which means that it's actually impossible and even not a desirable goal to pursue.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Equality in right is possible, equality in fact is not possible, except by forcefully making everyone equal. Which means that it's actually impossible and even not a desirable goal to pursue.
    I think you're wrong but by the time its accomplished there'll be technology to recover you from the ether purely from this post alone and they'll like materialise you some evening so they can all laugh and scoff at how wrong you were and take you for a tour.

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