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  1. #21
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If your aim is to defend a dwindling privilege then yeah, the less competition for the little rich kids the better, otherwise the chinese and other nations will out compete an uneducated or MTV nation in no time
    That's exactly my point.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    That's exactly my point.
    No, its my point, get your own point, you cant have my point.

  3. #23
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Because education remains, more than ever and especially in the United States, the major discriminant between the high dominant class and any other class.
    This is almost unquestionably true, and I think that most Americans would agree -- which is why the statement in the article that says that "tracking" students out of a path to college would never, ever be accepted here. You can include me among those who think it's a bad idea -- plenty of kids start off slow and yet turn out to do just fine when given an opportunity to go to college.

    But there is also, most definitely, a problem where college graduation is an expected requirement, particularly given just how out-of-control college costs are for young Americans. I worked closely with financial aid for many years, and it was truly frightening to see how much debt these kids were taking on. I believe the annual expenses for the school I worked at are now at about $60,000 per year. Granted, a lot of folks get scholarships that take a pretty big chunk out of that... but even if you can get half of that in scholarship (and that's more than a lot get) -- it's $120,000 for four years. That's a ton of debt for a young person to have... and that's assuming that they can get a job without attending graduate/professional school (which usually costs more -- depending on your field).

    The thing is that a lot of people may not *want* to go to college... and may not really *need* a college education in order to actually perform the duties of their chosen profession... but are basically obligated to participate in the increasing costs and years of debt simply to have a chance. It's a risky thing to take on when you're 18.

    I think a two-part solution is best... reducing the "everyone must to college" and providing more options for apprentice-based training would help, as would not requiring degrees for employment where they're not really necessary to perform job duties. As described in Disco's article. But also, something needs to be done about the costs of college - saddling those who do choose to go (and their parents, as is increasingly common, due to the spiraling costs) with debt is really stunting the economic potential of younger people.

    Not sure about the best way to go about that. I'm pretty sure that we don't need palatial student unions and gourmet food courts alongside $750 a month dorm rooms, though.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The thing about a lot of the good, non-college jobs, is that they are often physically demanding. Most of them are not something you can do until you're seventy years old like you can with a lot of college-required jobs. Your body is going to be just about done by the time you're fifty-five *if* you've had good access to healthcare *and* you aren't a victim of an accident at work *and* you don't get laid off because you're costing the company too much due to seniority and health costs. Not a lot of incentive in spending your "golden years" being broke and broken down.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  5. #25
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What kind of incentives or regulations can be done to get companies to provide job training and apprenticeships, and what forces have created the shift to ward doing everything through college degrees anyhow?
    Let me first agree that I believe this is a "legitimate" issue. Some people should not get married, other should NOT have kids and still others should not go to college. Let me disagree with you. I do not believe that the burden of what should be done about the situation should fall on business only. I think this should be approached from two angles and one of those angles is that the Educational Industrial Complex needs to be a part of the solution. They are certainly part of the problem, in my opinion.

    An American high school education basically prepares you for college, not real life and certainly not immediate employment except into a no skill required entry level job. A look around at how other countries (wut?! Mericans don't do something gud?!, I can hear the neocons say...) address this issue is enlightening. I know that at least in one country when you first enter high school you have to pick a "career" which runs the gamut of options; Executive Secretary, Auto Mechanic, Accounting, Electrician/Plumbing, Law etc. You then spend the majority of high school studying these subjects. You still study other core subjects, i.e. English & Math but the equivalent of 3+ classes per semester are in your "area of interest".

    I like this kind of approach as it's basically a mini version of how universities educate i.e. general education plus coursework. The difference is at the high school level the focus is on employable job skills vs. theoretical knowledge i.e. how to change spark plugs vs. what part of the ignition system flow chart spark plugs fall under or the history and development of double over head cams being standard... FTR I actually took 3 years of auto shop in high school and have first hand knowledge of how American schools teach "trade" skills. See Gish I told you I'm a ninja ISFP.

    I am reminded of an article I read awhile back, specifically the subtitle. "How the American Dream can undermine us" (my apologies for no link atm, I'm at work)

    Which reminds me of a talk by Barry Schwartz; The Paradox of Choice

    http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwa...of_choice.html

    Which reminds me of a section where he plainly comments "The secret to happiness is low expectations"

    Which makes me think, that herein lies the nature of the BEAST. Go to college, you'll get a good job, make good money and find happiness/The American Dream.

    I'm at work so I go nao. Bai.

    P.S. Which reminds me of the fact that the U.S. has one of the highest suicide rates of "1st world" countries...
    Last edited by SpankyMcFly; 09-06-2013 at 07:51 PM. Reason: added the P.S. comment
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    This bubble will never "pop". It will never happen, or only within your dreams.

    Because education remains, more than ever and especially in the United States, the major discriminant between the high dominant class and any other class.
    All bubbles pop. Still, did housing go away when the housing market bubble popped? No. And neither will education go away when the student loan bubble pops. If we are lucky, the predatory for-profit colleges (like the one mentioned at the beginning of the article) will take a serious hit, though.

    Once again, the OP's article is just plain conservative demagoguery. Demagoguery means it says exactly what you want to hear, and not what is really happening.
    Curious... what is REALLY happening then in regards to the article?

  7. #27
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Disclaimer before I start: I think college is beneficial for anyone seeking to go--even if they do not do well in their classes. The grades are not the most important thing, and a lot of people learn about what they can and cannot handle in college, as well as what they like and dislike. Some simply go to college, hate it, and know that they're better off without it and have no regrets either way.

    With that said.

    - Colleges do not make education their number one priority. They are a business, that happens to be operating in the realm of education. I'm not talking about stream lining the process for those seeking vocational work (because I do feel a lot of community colleges have made this process pretty simple, even if they do spread it too thin to keep them there longer) nor am I talking about adding 'too much' onto a simple degree (the amount of time, classes, and hours spent to get my mother's certification is trivial in comparison to what you need to do now to become something as simple as a massage therapist) which is a different touchy subject entirely, and I'm not even going NEAR the topic of facilities and student amenities. I mean that they make money off of what they do--and as long as *the colleges* make money versus say, great professors, you will always be paying for their convenience. The colleges aren't there to offer a kid a service--they're there to make money. They'll lure you in, and take that money, but lord forbid something goes wrong and you realize how little they really do care about your actual education.

    - The job market has a lot to do with it. Seriously, I applied to a party store that sells cheap plastic halloween decorations, and they had a *200 question analysis* on work ethic. 200 REAL questions with videos and everything I had to answer to apply to this ONE single shitty cashier position. The job market is full of snooty, pretentious little shits that think their job only deserves the best of the golden eggs laid by society. My store manager at a frozen yogurt shop kept looking for reasons to fire one of the high school kids working there because he didn't always do his job to standard--but he was in high school full time and had TWO jobs at the age of 16. Do you really expect work ethic to be achieved overnight? It takes years. A dental hygienist used to be an entry level job, and now it's a HUGE competitive field in community college. LVN's require one YEAR of paid education and training in order to--what? Move patients, change bedding, and recognize warning signs of health declining?
    No one is realistic about their expectations anymore. Everyone wants someone with experience in this, or that. They want educated people simply because there are educated people to be had. No one wants to teach people how to do the job themselves--someone ELSE needs to do it. We just want all the profits from that other guy's hard work. As long as businesses have that mentality (Oh, we're hiring a receptionist! Proficiency with (insert 17 programs here), 2+ years experience, and we prefer a 2 year degree.) kids are going to be forced to go to school because they aren't going to have any options. They don't even get a chance to land a good apprenticeship somewhere--the businesses don't want to teach them! They want the education to magically appear! And community colleges are glad to take that void and turn it into a profit--as would I if I were a community college.

    - High schools are geared to tests and not life. Seriously, while I think high schools are getting much better at offering vocational programs, this whole business on 'tracking' students is non-sense. Instead of slotting them by grade, it should be up to the student and parents. No one can say we're discriminating against Asians by making them all take engineering classes if all the parents and students are the ones voting for them. With programs out there now like GREs, after-high-school diplomas, and community college, a student can start over from scratch without knowing SHIT in high school and still be successful! So there is no excuse in not giving students volunteer-style work experience and hands on training in real fields that can go towards fixing some of this bullshit the job market is creating. Medical assistant training? There is NOTHING in those classes that a high schooler could not learn. I'm not saying take everything away--there ought to be core subjects... but what I am saying is, in high school, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And instead of helping guide me towards something, I pissed it away as a result. Auto tech in the morning because I could sleep for 2 hours and take an occasional test, P.E. even though I already had it twice before, a lower level math class that I could sleep through, 3D art, aquatic science (seriously though, that class rocked)... Complete bullshit, the whole year. I had fun, it was easy, there was no reason to skip school, and I learned almost nothing save for my single English academic class. And the school was completely okay with me doing nothing for an entire year--nor making plans for it. If my parents had known better then, I would have gone to the alternative high school up the road (which, then, was stigmatized for where the 'pregnant' and 'no-good' kids go) and graduated with a diploma 2 years early knowing the same amount of information.

    My personal opinion on the subject? I think entrepreneurs, people who think outside the box, and small businesses are the best buffers for this sort of shit right now.
    I agree there is a bubble that will pop--especially concerning student loans (kids are noticing way too late that that prestigious degree they earned doesn't mean as much as they hoped anymore) and banks--but unless something is done about the job market's attitude (the real driver, imo, on this issue) towards education and entry level jobs, it is going to keep being a mess. (Seriously, if we're going to use the housing market as bubble examples.. You see commercials all the time for "Are you under water on your home? We can help!" News flash: If you don't own your home, you're paying interest.. on top of your home's worth.. you've been under water on it (owing more than it is worth) since the time you signed that contract.)
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  8. #28
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The thing about a lot of the good, non-college jobs, is that they are often physically demanding. Most of them are not something you can do until you're seventy years old like you can with a lot of college-required jobs. Your body is going to be just about done by the time you're fifty-five *if* you've had good access to healthcare *and* you aren't a victim of an accident at work *and* you don't get laid off because you're costing the company too much due to seniority and health costs. Not a lot of incentive in spending your "golden years" being broke and broken down.
    Well, the typical path in more physically demanding jobs would be that after 20-25 years of experience, people become self-employed in their domain or coordinators/bosses/etc in their division. Of course, that cannot possibly happen for everyone, so someone is bound to have the problem you mention, yeah.

    Anyway, I don't fully agree with the premise of the OP. I'm more into a combination of:

    - very cheap education
    - extremely demanding standards

    such as you can select the "best" people irrispective of their social background.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Well college in societies like the UK and US are becoming a substitute for national service or gap years or some other socially organised and normative "milestone" for youth, the reality is that in an economy which would be structured much differently from our own, these sections of the population could find employment and be socialised into cultural norms and mores that way but because the US and UK are plutonomies and would prefer to out source the demands for or potential for problems with large populations of organised, politicised labour forces its not going to happen.

  10. #30
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Its a great article and deserves a proper read.
    That is an interesting article. 46% drop out of college? Is that true? If so, I had no idea the rate was that high.

    This is the Harvard Study mentioned in the article.

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