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  1. #21
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    @Il Morto Che Parla seems reluctant to pursue this discussion, but perhaps other members have relevant observations. Il Morto contrasted masculine and feminine behavior this way:

    In my experience, it's more usual for the woman to want to "shine", and for the man to set the "frame". Think of a rock and a flower.

    My contention is this: many men today try, unknowingly, to take on what is actually the "feminine" role, trying to perform and impress, thinking it is what they have to do, but it goes against their own essence, therefore they repel the very "feminine" which they wish to attract.
    Even among traditional views/stereotypes, it seems there is more variety than this.

    Do any of you know men who want to shine, who thrive in the limelight, who like to perform and impress, whether as entertainers, athletes, businessmen, or politicians? Does this make them less "masculine"?

    Conversely, do you know women who are very quiet and modest, keeping mostly to themselves? Or even women who think they should keep the focus on the man in a conversation or dating encounter, to stroke his ego and make him feel special? Does this make them less feminine?
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  2. #22
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    I was talking about a personal interaction, one-to-one or in a small group, not necessary in all areas of life, such as public speaking or acting.

    Also there are other reasons for "performing" as a politiciant, athlete or businessman, other than to impress people.

    I may try to convince someone to buy a product or to vote for a policy. It doesn't mean I am seeking to impress them for my own ego, but primarily as a means to an end.

    However if I approach a social interaction because I seek to be appreciated as an end in itself, then that would be quite different. I consider that to be the feminine role in an interaction, while the role of the masculine is to offer appreciation. which of course is only valuable if genuine, and offered from a place of strength rather than neediness.

    Regarding the reluctance to pursue the discussion: that's correct, as I don't have any more to say. It is just my experience of reality, you will judge to what extent it applies to your own.

    But I did just want to clarify the above point.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    @Il Morto Che Parla seems reluctant to pursue this discussion, but perhaps other members have relevant observations. Il Morto contrasted masculine and feminine behavior this way:


    Even among traditional views/stereotypes, it seems there is more variety than this.

    Do any of you know men who want to shine, who thrive in the limelight, who like to perform and impress, whether as entertainers, athletes, businessmen, or politicians? Does this make them less "masculine"?

    Conversely, do you know women who are very quiet and modest, keeping mostly to themselves? Or even women who think they should keep the focus on the man in a conversation or dating encounter, to stroke his ego and make him feel special? Does this make them less feminine?
    .

    You can reason with this feminine/masculine stuff. It's all arbitrary . Hence why I always use quotations with "masculine" and "feminine" they don't refer to anything concrete. All based on individual subjectivity.

    Women want to impress because ..... It's inverse of the idea that women want to be impressed by a man enough to devote herself to nurturing him and helping him. Both have no basis in anything but the speakers ideal world.

    But really the idea that it's feminine to want to impress seems to go against the history competitive sports/ displays of physical prowess and wealth, and ability to protect which are all in the traditionally "masculine realm".

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    All based on individual subjectivity.

    Both have no basis in anything but the speakers ideal world.
    This may be correct. I am talking about art not science, so why try to reason?

    I approach interactions in that way because it works for me. It attracts what I want to attract, and filters out that which I don't.

    In practice though, despite endless objections on an online forum, I find it works nearly always in real life.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    This may be correct. I am talking about art not science, so why try to reason?

    I approach interactions in that way because it works for me. It attracts what I want to attract, and filters out that which I don't.

    In practice though, despite endless objections on an online forum, I find it works nearly always in real life.

    I don't doubt being receptive to people and a good listener is useful but I don't think you can ascribe that to a gender divide. Being a good listen will get you far with men and women.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I don't doubt being receptive to people and a good listener is useful but I don't think you can ascribe that to a gender divide. Being a good listen will get you far with men and women.
    To a certain extent. I did not only describe being a good listener though.

    Ultimately I was talking about a "vibe" which is very intense. eye contact, posture, phsyical contact, loud, slow, flat voice, lingering silences. Smile at first introduction, then once the "hook" happens, poker face.

    With a man, that same tension, in my case, is toned down, or else it seems very aggressive. Whereas with a woman, I amplify it.

    However I suppose the same basic principles apply. The thing is you carry yourself in a certain way and then tweek it according to your feeling in each interaction. Your will be different to mine, I am only speaking for myself, and I am sure some but not all people can identify, to varying degrees.

  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    However I suppose the same basic principles apply. The thing is you carry yourself in a certain way and then tweek it according to your feeling in each interaction. Your will be different to mine, I am only speaking for myself, and I am sure some but not all people can identify, to varying degrees.
    Hopefully everyone can identify with the idea of figuring out the way they relate best to people, to bring the results they want. On an individual level, it all makes sense. Trying to relate it to masculine and feminine not so much, especially since these are subjective and imprecise labels. From the way you describe it here, I would probably find your approach boring and a bit pretentious, and even intrusive if you expected me as the woman to do most of the talking. But then I'm probably not the kind of woman you would want to attract anyway, so it all works out. As long as I can relate to someone professionally and platonically, the rest will take care of itself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    I tend to see masculinity as separate from being a man. A man can be feminine and still be a man because being masculine isn't what it has to mean to be a man. I also don't believe being feminine means not being masculine and vice versa. Then being a man should mean something much more innate, something related to a person's natural or preferred way of interacting with other people and something that wants to express itself as a form of identity. It's not something you'd choose to be, but something you could only choose to repress (and that would require effort and some level of frustration).

    So if the problem is that men are repressing their identities as men in order to have an identity of a women, that could be a problem. But if it's about masculinity/femininity, then the solution isn't to become masculine, but to become more masculine, without losing their femininity because the problem with saying it's because they need to be masculine and not feminine is that you make femininity the problem, whereas extreme masculinity can be just as harmful and has been used to suppress women before with the Women's Rights Movement. What you'd want is a balance of masculinity and femininity, while still identifying as a man or a woman or perhaps neither (whichever you know is right because ironically/strangely only you can really know that).

  10. #30
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    @Il Morto Che Parla seems reluctant to pursue this discussion, but perhaps other members have relevant observations. Il Morto contrasted masculine and feminine behavior this way:


    Even among traditional views/stereotypes, it seems there is more variety than this.

    Do any of you know men who want to shine, who thrive in the limelight, who like to perform and impress, whether as entertainers, athletes, businessmen, or politicians? Does this make them less "masculine"?

    Conversely, do you know women who are very quiet and modest, keeping mostly to themselves? Or even women who think they should keep the focus on the man in a conversation or dating encounter, to stroke his ego and make him feel special? Does this make them less feminine?
    Well, sometimes it's even worst.

    Take my case for instance: sometimes, I really enjoy the fact I can impress an audience (especially when I lecture students, or during working sessions), and some other times, I prefer to listen carefully.
    According to the so-called masculinity-feminity scale, where would I be if I can switch my behaviour depending on my current mood and interests?

    And worst than that, most people I know IRL can also exhibit contradictory behaviours according to the situation. Most people are complex beings.

    I'd rather pity those who think there's always a simple, standardized role to follow. They don't know what they miss...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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