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  1. #11
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Ehm, to those who think the "natural state" of men is being surpressed by modern western civilization, may I remind you that hunters and gatherers to all appearances had (and in the case of todays so called primi LOWER testosterone levels than today's modern urban man? Testosterone has a lot going for it, but it is a burden on the immune system and therefor high levels are a luxury only made possible by the very same pampered civilized modern lifestyle that supposedly goes against male nature.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Ehm, to those who think the "natural state" of men is being surpressed by modern western civilization, may I remind you that hunters and gatherers to all appearances had (and in the case of todays so called primi LOWER testosterone levels than today's modern urban man? Testosterone has a lot going for it, but it is a burden on the immune system and therefor high levels are a luxury only made possible by the very same pampered civilized modern lifestyle that supposedly goes against male nature.
    I don't think there is any "natural state" of all men and all women.

    I think different people have different levels of "masculinity" and "femininity", which correlate with, but are not reductible to, gender.

    I set out a list of guidelines and principles that I set for myself and that have helped me to be a better, happier and more effective person (by my own criteria of morality and success), and seem to do so for many men.

    It really is up to each human being to set their own standards to live by, though.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    I think there is less room for men whose only dimension is the hyper-"masculine" dominating, aggressive version of manhood. And not as a result of feminism but as a result of a society who's government and technology make that type of person less valuable. There a have been countless men in previous centuries who rely more on their brain than their brawn. This isn't to say I think physicality is unimportant but the idea that men's value or identity lies in the physical prowess or role as protector ignores the teaching and example of great men like Socrates or the enlightenment thinkers who stressed the power of the mind.

    The idea that manhood is under attack operates from a very narrow idea of what it means to be a man or how man are valuable, in my opinion.

    I appreciate the "masculine" qualities of my partner (he's vey athletic, a natural leader and decisive) but I appreciate also his acceptance of his less typically male traits (he's sensitive, cries openly, is shorter). The fact that his doesnt connect his value as a man to his height or ability to provide, again in my opinion, show and awareness of his value and strengths as an indiviual man outside the traditional model. I find that very adult or manly.

    As a result when he does want to provide for me I take it as a generous act, which is nicer to recieve than than an attempt to prove himself.

  4. #14
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I personally attach anything much to my gender, beyond hormones and specific biological differences and conditions, (such as prostate cancer).

    It's interesting really because the environment I was brought up around was very much of what people might consider traditional masculinity. I was happy to fight back in my own way against the consensual assumption that I should act or be a certain way.

    Of course certain traits associated with masculinity are of benefit, being a natural leader, decisive...etc as @Pseudo identified above. But are those traits associated with masculinity because they are inherent in men or is it just that masculinity laid claim to them?

    I've always preferred to see the world through the spectrum of myriad variables and differences that can potentially arise and this extends to people as well. So the positive qualities I admire as an individual have come from both men and women. I learnt long ago that being openly sensitive is one of the most difficult qualities anyone can possess and live with and requires far more strength than most people admit.

    It just always looked like another case of indoctrination. It's all just noise in the hall, self-fulfilling cycles of assumptions that are seen to be true because they are assumed to be true and so are proven to be true because people want it to be true, striving therefore to make sure it becomes truth.

    I've watched people too carefully and watched myself, to believe that anything could be so simply defined.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  5. #15
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    I find it really corny when naturally un-masculine guys try to fit mainstream-masculinity. If you don't got it, you don't got it.

  6. #16
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    I find it really corny when naturally un-masculine guys try to fit mainstream-masculinity. If you don't got it, you don't got it.
    ........So what you're saying is then: Nobody wants to see me walking around in a sleeveless shirt with a random ballcap and sunglasses on my head and randomly slapping asses?

    Because DAMN, I was ready and willing to put on a gun show!!!

    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  7. #17
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Is the masculine man a dinosaur better relegated to a bygone era? Are his issues ignored by society, unappreciated my the media, are his merits forgotten in wake of female empowerment? Has cultural degeneration left him stranded alone in paradise?
    Define "masculine", so at least we are all arguing about the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    We must choose whether we want men to be like Sean Connery or like Justin Bieber. There are no other options!
    Not so. You yourself are a stellar example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    David Deida says that every human is somewhere on a masculintiy/femininity scale, and you have to be true to your own nature in order to be happy and to successful.

    I consider that I am quite masculine, and the challenge for me therefore is to realize this in a positive way, rather than to repress it. When a masculine man tries to repress his nature and to be more "nice", it will express itself as blandness, repression, passive aggression and fakeness. a HUGE turnoff for any woman, and for other people generally - except for other male losers like themselves.
    I often disagree with Dieda, but the highlighted is certainly true. Don't discount being "nice", though. The key is, like everything else, to do it in your own way. Even "masculine" men don't get brownie points for gratuitous rudeness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Currently, I have found for me, these techniques have helped me to become a much happier and more effective person in reaching my goals: whether romantic, social or business.
    These techniques sound like good advice for anyone, though the comment on conversations would be better stated: "start the conversation, and give the other person the opportunity to shine." I don't see how any of this is exclusively, or even especially, masculine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I set out a list of guidelines and principles that I set for myself and that have helped me to be a better, happier and more effective person (by my own criteria of morality and success), and seem to do so for many men.
    See, both times you referenced this list, you mentioned it helped you be a better person, not a better man. Why wouldn't it work the same for women?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    These techniques sound like good advice for anyone, though the comment on conversations would be better stated: "start the conversation, and give the other person the opportunity to shine." I don't see how any of this is exclusively, or even especially, masculine.
    Well, I am using Deida's framework that most, not all, men have a "masculine" essence, and most, not all, women have a "feminine" essence.

    In my experience, it's more usual for the woman to want to "shine", and for the man to set the "frame". Think of a rock and a flower.

    My contention is this: many men today try, unknowingly, to take on what is actually the "feminine" role, trying to perform and impress, thinking it is what they have to do, but it goes against their own essence, therefore they repel the very "feminine" which they wish to attract.

    I say this purely because I see it all the time, in friends, who cannot understand why despite their hours in the gym, intelligence, kindness, money and good looks, no woman will touch them.

    However, I very much emphasize this: nobody can dictate how every man and woman should act. If you are happy taking on the role which I described as "masculine", then I am sure this is natural for you, and this what you should do, and that you will be fulfilled in this way, regardless your gender.

  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    In my experience, it's more usual for the woman to want to "shine", and for the man to set the "frame". Think of a rock and a flower.

    My contention is this: many men today try, unknowingly, to take on what is actually the "feminine" role, trying to perform and impress, thinking it is what they have to do, but it goes against their own essence, therefore they repel the very "feminine" which they wish to attract.

    I say this purely because I see it all the time, in friends, who cannot understand why despite their hours in the gym, intelligence, kindness, money and good looks, no woman will touch them.
    This seems to me more like an I/E distinction rather than anything gender-based, unless you are suggesting that extraversion correlates with women/femininity, etc. What you describe here as masculine seems to be a specific flavor of masculine often called the "strong, silent type". Introverts may be confortable with this, but extraverted men express their masculinity far differently and in ways that are equally traditional/familiar.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This seems to me more like an I/E distinction rather than anything gender-based, unless you are suggesting that extraversion correlates with women/femininity, etc. What you describe here as masculine seems to be a specific flavor of masculine often called the "strong, silent type". Introverts may be confortable with this, but extraverted men express their masculinity far differently and in ways that are equally traditional/familiar.
    hmmm....I think we see it from different angles, MBTI does not enter into my understanding of this. It may well be useful for you however, I know nothing about you, so I cannot comment..

    I really try to avoid "debating" these kind of things with someone who I don't know personally, as I am not a preacher, and each person is different.

    I can only define myself, and you can only define yourself, no-one else can define either of us, and we cannot define anyone else. Then as we define ourselves, we attract what we attract. Only if we are true to ourselves do we attract that which is truly for us.

    I can't comment on much beyond that. You have your reality and I have mine. If those techniques I described also work for you as a woman, then that is great.

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