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  1. #81
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    A very abbreviated expression of my opinion.

    I don't agree that men are excessively suspected or criticized for this. What I have seen indicates a great number of men are still sadly inconsiderate of these things.

    I do agree that there is an unreasonable tone of zero accountability for women and a pressure not to ask questions.

    I add something that I was surprised to not find in this article, which is that such messages are perhaps as or more irresponsible and insulting to women as men.

    I found the "don't be that girl" campaign surprisingly inoffensive (based on what I expect from mens' rights people) but I do think the statement might be something of a straw man argument. How significant are such scenarios, really? It's not the most valid counter to the "don't be that guy poster".

    I do seriously doubt the actual use of such a poster campaign either way. I don't think anyone likely to commit sexual assault or rape is going to give them much consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not really contributing here, but the whole "privilege hierarchy" can kiss my ass.
    Spoken like a white, Christian, man with money.
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  2. #82
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    To all the guys making light or little of rape, hope it doesnt happen to you or any of your family and friends. Just saying.

    Or maybe you'll laugh it off. Who knows, you could be right and this is all a lot of bullshit made up by feminists.

    Lets hope no one gets to test that one with experience. What do you say? What no laughs?

  3. #83
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I do seriously doubt the actual use of such a poster campaign either way. I don't think anyone likely to commit sexual assault or rape is going to give them much consideration.
    I think that's a valid point. Vital even.

    On the other hand, while those individuals may be beyond influence and simply have to be safeguarded against, perhaps a campaign is necessary to alert individuals about their dealings with them?

    I'm not simply talking about the family, friends and social network who make offences and reoffending possible through cover ups, incredulous responses or being in denial, the confidants or broadly speaking collaborators, but more general members of the public.

    Also while there's chronic offenders there's also opportunistic offenders, particularly in some social scenes.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    A very abbreviated expression of my opinion.

    I don't agree that men are excessively suspected or criticized for this. What I have seen indicates a great number of men are still sadly inconsiderate of these things.

    I do agree that there is an unreasonable tone of zero accountability for women and a pressure not to ask questions.

    I add something that I was surprised to not find in this article, which is that such messages are perhaps as or more irresponsible and insulting to women as men.

    I found the "don't be that girl" campaign surprisingly inoffensive (based on what I expect from mens' rights people) but I do think the statement might be something of a straw man argument. How significant are such scenarios, really? It's not the most valid counter to the "don't be that guy poster".

    I do seriously doubt the actual use of such a poster campaign either way. I don't think anyone likely to commit sexual assault or rape is going to give them much consideration.



    Spoken like a white, Christian, man with money.
    Spoken like a card carrying member of the grievance industrial complex.

    Sorry my ancestors were more successful than average.

  5. #85
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I was just curious because I hear a lot of feminists talk about how there is so much misogyny, how the US has a misogynistic culture. That doesn't seem like a negligibly rare thing to me. So I think it would be safe to assume there are more men who hate women than women who hate men? Would that be an accurate assessment?
    Oh, I see. I think "misogyny" is used to mean a much more broad thing than "men who hate women", even if that's the dictionary definition. Particularly when used to describe culture. I don't think there are many men who hate women but I think there are a lot of men (and women) who think women are less capable, less rational, less intelligent, less trustworthy, etc etc etc. Not the majority, I think, but a sizable minority. It's more complicated to talk about cultural misogyny but that tends to refer to things like objectification (valuing women for sex appeal and nothing else) at a far higher rate than men, and cultural practices that are disproportionally harmful to women, even unintentionally - things like encouraging women to stay at home --> lower wages because you took a year off for mat leave, lower wages/benefits because you work part-time/flexible hours because you're the one taking kids to appointments, etc. "Misogyny" there is not really referring to hatred of women, even on a societal level, but more talking about how women are often at a disadvantage.

    Of course, a lot of cultural practices that are harmful to women are also harmful to men, in different ways. Promoting women as ideal child/home caretakers --> ideas like men can't be trusted with kids, are incompetent in cooking/cleaning/childrearing, negative ideas about men who become stay at home parents, shitty paternity leave policies in many places, need to pay alimony/child support after divorce (if your wife lost wage opportunities from mat leave/child care), etc etc. So to me it seems a bit short-sighted to call it misogynistic overall. My guess is that the angle of women being harmed is focused on more for two reasons:

    1) lack of support by organizations that focus on the issues themselves rather than on attacking feminism

    2) issues affecting men are often more subtle and less obviously harmful than those affecting women, even though they often parallel issues affecting women

    ex: shitty paternity leave/social discouragement of male primary childcaretakers --> men are deprived of child-care experience (either parental or professional) and often lose custody battles, while women are deprived of independence, wages, discriminated against for jobs because she might get pregnant (yes illegal, yes it still happens), etc

    ex: poor access to birth control/abortion --> men are forced to pay to raise a kid, women are forced to pay to raise a kid AND physically carry a child and give birth

    To me it would be ideal if we could be talking about these kinds of things outside of the framework of feminism (or misogyny/misandry), because feminism has been around so long that everyone has a different definition of it as the political groups and social opinions change. Feminist groups have an unfortunate name that leads people to believe that they only care about women, but the groups I'm familiar with try very hard to promote gender equality, not giving women a helping hand and kicking the men away. On the other hand, the mens-rights groups that I'm familiar with seem to operate exclusively on the idea that they must prove that women are not disadvantaged in any way before moving on to promote awareness of the ways in which men are disadvantaged.

    I think a group that promoted awareness of issues disproportionally affecting men (or women, for that matter) would find a lot of popular support if they spent time improving the actual problems rather than fighting with the feminist groups. Ex: determining custody by suitability of the parent rather than gender, more funding for homeless shelters/mentally ill people, improvements to the criminal system, etc. Difficult problems to solve, but even more difficult if people spend more energy fighting about whether men or women have it worse than figuring out how to make it better for everyone.

    I bring this video up not because I'm trying to argue that the US has a misandristic culture, I don't think it does. But I do think this is indicative of a cultural double standard. I cannot imagine a major network not immediately firing people who joked about mutilating women like this. I mean, this video isn't a light-hearted PG joke about dongles, it's pretty serious stuff, at least I would consider it to be pretty serious if I was the victim. It seems to me that feminists are winning the propaganda war pretty handily if things like this can be passed off as jokes, not misandry, but the converse would absolutely, positively be misogyny. Thoughts?
    Sorry, can't watch the video right now. If you summarize briefly I can comment. I will say that jokes often go better when they're directed at the powerful rather than the weak, as a general rule. I don't really think anyone should be joking about mutilating anyone but I'm not sure what the context is in this case, and there is always a certain subpopulation who enjoys their "dead babies"-style off-colour jokes, so there is often a pass given for humour, particularly at the expense of a historically more powerful group. (I can't think of a good example, but think about good, insightful jokes about racism vs. jokes that are thinly-veiled racist statements that are intended to be "funny cause it's true")

    I don't think this is always true. The girls who falsely accused the cab driver of sexual assault in the OP didn't seem to be hyper aware of this. I think most women are honest and would never make a false accusation, but there is a subset that has no problem with it.
    For sure, this is true of any crime. I just don't think education is going to help anything here - I doubt the girls you mention were unaware that false accusations are both immoral and illegal. They just thought they could get away with it, since it's a difficult thing to prosecute. And I don't think the anti-rape-accusation posters were intended to be educational, anyway - it's pretty clear to me that they were unhappy about the anti-rape posters and are "retaliating".
    -end of thread-

  6. #86
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think a lot less of you for this post. Just saying.
    Unless you drop that patronizing tone and start making reasonable arguments, you're going to continue being the joke of the forum.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  7. #87
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Oh, I see. I think "misogyny" is used to mean a much more broad thing than "men who hate women", even if that's the dictionary definition. Particularly when used to describe culture. I don't think there are many men who hate women but I think there are a lot of men (and women) who think women are less capable, less rational, less intelligent, less trustworthy, etc etc etc. Not the majority, I think, but a sizable minority. It's more complicated to talk about cultural misogyny but that tends to refer to things like objectification (valuing women for sex appeal and nothing else) at a far higher rate than men, and cultural practices that are disproportionally harmful to women, even unintentionally - things like encouraging women to stay at home --> lower wages because you took a year off for mat leave, lower wages/benefits because you work part-time/flexible hours because you're the one taking kids to appointments, etc. "Misogyny" there is not really referring to hatred of women, even on a societal level, but more talking about how women are often at a disadvantage.
    The highlighted is why I made the distinction between hatred and mistrust, both of which are often included in definitions of misogyny. Objectification is just one more layer of this. As long as family and "work/life balance" issues are described as "women's issues", their impact on men will be glossed over, and they will elude comprehensive, long-term solutions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #88
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Unless you drop that patronizing tone and start making reasonable arguments, you're going to continue being the joke of the forum.
    Says the guy who finds rape amusing. I think I'm safe mate thanks.

  9. #89
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Says the guy who finds rape amusing. I think I'm safe mate thanks.
    I know you love childish games, but I'm not gonna play with you. Peace out.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #90
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Spoken like a card carrying member of the grievance industrial complex.

    Sorry my ancestors were more successful than average.
    The average includes slaves and disenfranchised Chinese workers barred from citizenship.

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