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  1. #71
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    What does this have to do with feminism? Some women are against porn for feminist reasons, but the majority of women I've seen complaining about it are the old-fashioned, traditional gender roles type. Most feminists I know are OK with (or even personally enjoy) porn, at least from companies that treat their actors ethically and that portray both men and women acting in a non-degrading way.

    I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that:

    1) men on average have a slightly higher libido, but there is considerable overlap between sexes and libido also changes with age, medication, stress, etc, so either gender can have a higher libido in any given relationship (averages aren't worth much there)

    2) it sucks to not get as much sex as you want, regardless of gender, and ideally relationships would have similar libido of both people

    3) using sex in a manipulative way to get what you want is a really shitty thing to do, regardless of gender, and most people don't do it

    Now back to feminism. Woo!
    Did I say it had anything to do with feminism? I was responding to Disco's post about sex robots.

    Incidentally, one of the people who called males losers in that thread, Salome, is a radical feminist, but I did not mention that. Perhaps you knew that and assumed I was making that connection subconsciously?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #72
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Did I say it had anything to do with feminism? I was responding to Disco's post about sex robots.

    Incidentally, one of the people who called males losers in that thread, Salome, is a radical feminist, but I did not mention that. Perhaps you knew that and assumed I was making that connection subconsciously?
    Oh OK, I was just confused because this thread is about feminism (or more accurately, about one person's complaints about public reception of feminist-led PSAs about alcohol-related rape vs. MRA-led PSAs about false rape accusations), so I thought you were drawing a connection. I am aware that some feminists hate/distrust men (as some men hate women, some men hate other men, and some women hate other women), but this is rare enough that it's not representative of feminism and therefore not relevant.

    For the record, I consider myself feminist and I'd have zero problem with a "don't be that girl" ad showing a passed-out guy. I think it's pretty important to discuss that angle, actually, since a lot of people don't view even extreme drunkenness as impairing consent (both males and females). I also think the man-on-man ad was a good addition (a woman-on-woman ad would be good as well, although I'm not sure on the frequency of that). I don't know why they made everyone white, that seems dumb, although I could see potential racial implications of showing an interracial couple (unfortunate that it needs to be considered, but I think it is relevant).

    I have a bit of a problem with the "don't be that girl" ads about false rape accusations, because rape is already very underreported (by both genders) and I think more reporting should be encouraged (from both genders). These ads are likely to make people second-guess themselves from the already-difficult decision to report it, when it would be better to have things over-reported (truthfully, obviously) and then the police can make the decision about whether something was assault or not. The police have their own issues, of course, but that's another discussion. At least they know the actual laws, which is more than a lot of college students (hence the ads).

    I think the anti-rape ads might be helpful in encouraging more reporting, actually - a lot of young girls don't realize that it is legally rape (in some countries, anyway) when you are extremely drunk/passed out. And they might also prompt/remind people to rein in their friends ("hey dude, she's too drunk, let's just get her number and walk her home safely") more than they would otherwise. Sometimes drunk people are bad at realizing how drunk other people are.
    -end of thread-

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I have a bit of a problem with the "don't be that girl" ads about false rape accusations, because rape is already very underreported (by both genders) and I think more reporting should be encouraged (from both genders). These ads are likely to make people second-guess themselves from the already-difficult decision to report it, when it would be better to have things over-reported (truthfully, obviously) and then the police can make the decision about whether something was assault or not.
    It is obvious that it would be better if the number of sexual assaults and the number of reported sexual assaults are the same. It is obvious that people shouldn't make false allegations.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Oh OK, I was just confused because this thread is about feminism (or more accurately, about one person's complaints about public reception of feminist-led PSAs about alcohol-related rape vs. MRA-led PSAs about false rape accusations), so I thought you were drawing a connection. I am aware that some feminists hate/distrust men (as some men hate women, some men hate other men, and some women hate other women), but this is rare enough that it's not representative of feminism and therefore not relevant.
    Really, it's that rare? Is it more, less, or equally as rare as men hating/distrusting women?

    For the record, I consider myself feminist and I'd have zero problem with a "don't be that girl" ad showing a passed-out guy. I think it's pretty important to discuss that angle, actually, since a lot of people don't view even extreme drunkenness as impairing consent (both males and females). I also think the man-on-man ad was a good addition (a woman-on-woman ad would be good as well, although I'm not sure on the frequency of that). I don't know why they made everyone white, that seems dumb, although I could see potential racial implications of showing an interracial couple (unfortunate that it needs to be considered, but I think it is relevant).

    I have a bit of a problem with the "don't be that girl" ads about false rape accusations, because rape is already very underreported (by both genders) and I think more reporting should be encouraged (from both genders). These ads are likely to make people second-guess themselves from the already-difficult decision to report it, when it would be better to have things over-reported (truthfully, obviously) and then the police can make the decision about whether something was assault or not. The police have their own issues, of course, but that's another discussion. At least they know the actual laws, which is more than a lot of college students (hence the ads).
    So you're okay with the "don't be that girl" ads showing a passed-out guy, but you think the "don't be that girl" ads are bad because they'll reduce the number of reported rapes?

    I'd rather see things evenly reported, not over or under reported. I mean, it's not like people who are acquitted of sexual assault/rape just go on with their lives like nothing happened. Lawyers cost money. And sometimes just an accusation can cost someone his/her job, not to mention the pain a false accusation can cause the family of the accused. Try putting yourself into the shoes of a woman whose husband was falsely accused. Would you lose trust in him? Even if he was acquitted, would you still have lingering doubts given how difficult it is to prove rape/sexual assault charges? And realize, I'm not trying to diminish legitimate accusations. It's just that the devastation of a false accusation is pretty much dismissed by feminists as inconsequential, acceptable collateral damage as greenfairy believes.

    You don't even have to assault anyone to have your livelyhood damaged by this issue, as happened with Donglegate. Just offending someone with PG humor who you weren't even addressing is enough to get you fired.

    I think the anti-rape ads might be helpful in encouraging more reporting, actually - a lot of young girls don't realize that it is legally rape (in some countries, anyway) when you are extremely drunk/passed out. And they might also prompt/remind people to rein in their friends ("hey dude, she's too drunk, let's just get her number and walk her home safely") more than they would otherwise. Sometimes drunk people are bad at realizing how drunk other people are.
    Teens and young adults could use more education on a lot of things. Getting them to actually listen is a challenge. I don't think posters will do it, but that's just my opinion.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Really, it's that rare? Is it more, less, or equally as rare as men hating/distrusting women?
    I have no idea. Both populations are very rare in my experience, making comparisons between them difficult.
    So you're okay with the "don't be that girl" ads showing a passed-out guy, but you think the "don't be that girl" ads are bad because they'll reduce the number of reported rapes?
    Sorry for the confusion, I should've used a different phrase. I meant I would be OK with an anti-rape ad targeted at women (in addition to men), but not the anti-false-accusations ads (whether targeted at either gender).

    I'd rather see things evenly reported, not over or under reported. I mean, it's not like people who are acquitted of sexual assault/rape just go on with their lives like nothing happened. Lawyers cost money. And sometimes just an accusation can cost someone his/her job, not to mention the pain a false accusation can cause the family of the accused. Try putting yourself into the shoes of a woman whose husband was falsely accused. Would you lose trust in him? Even if he was acquitted, would you still have lingering doubts given how difficult it is to prove rape/sexual assault charges? And realize, I'm not trying to diminish legitimate accusations. It's just that the devastation of a false accusation is pretty much dismissed by feminists as inconsequential, acceptable collateral damage as greenfairy believes.

    You don't even have to assault anyone to have your livelyhood damaged by this issue, as happened with Donglegate. Just offending someone with PG humor who you weren't even addressing is enough to get you fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    It is obvious that it would be better if the number of sexual assaults and the number of reported sexual assaults are the same. It is obvious that people shouldn't make false allegations.
    I am 100% in agreement. When I say over-reporting would be good, I am not referring to false allegations, I'm referring to situations where someone is unsure whether the thing that happened to them was assault. In that situation, IMO, it is best for the person to talk to the police (or a therapist/social worker, someone who knows the laws), accurately describe what happened (without identifying the person involved), and ask whether the situation was problematic.

    Deliberately accusing someone of something you know they didn't do is morally reprehensible, particularly if pursuing legal action and particularly for something as emotionally charged as rape. No arguments here. If anything, false accusations are harmful to rape victims, because they introduce a suspicion in many people's minds that any given accusation is false, and there is a considerable stigma to falsely reporting rape that even real victims are afraid of, which influences their decision to report. I'm not saying that false accusations should have less of a stigma, exactly, since clearly it is a shitty thing, but I think that anti-false-accusation ads would do more harm than good. Women are already hyper-aware that any accusation of rape will be met with a chorus of "she's lying" (which doesn't happen for things like physical assault), believe me.

    It definitely sucks a lot to be falsely accused of something like rape (re: the bolded, I have never met a feminist who thinks that false rape accusations aren't devastating - the reason they're often "dismissed" is that they are often used as rhetoric to redirect conversation away from problems with rape to problems with false rape accusations [despite the latter being incredibly less common and arguably also less devastating than rape, although they are different situations that shouldn't really be directly compared in that way anyway, they are both devastating in different ways], and so the reaction is often "OK, but we're talking about rape now, not this not-really-related other issue that also sucks"). Importantly, I don't think ads like this would decrease the rate of false accusations at all - people who lie about things like that know they weren't actually raped, they're just being vindictive assholes. Guys/women who have sex with someone who is too intoxicated to consent often don't realize that they're doing a shitty/possibly illegal thing. That's an important distinction, and greatly increases the possible benefit of ads like this vs. ads that say something like "don't murder" or "don't make false rape accusations".


    Teens and young adults could use more education on a lot of things. Getting them to actually listen is challenge. I don't think posters will do it, but that's just my opinion.
    Yeah, I totally agree. I do think the anti-rape posters might help a little (in terms of informing people who are not aware that stuff like that is over the line), and a little is better than nothing, but a lot of the problem is a society/general attitude thing, which a poster isn't going to help with. I don't think they harm anything, though.
    -end of thread-

  6. #76
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you believe I should be in prison for having sex with my wife when she was drunk and came on to me. That is a reasonable conclusion given your post, since sex without consent is always rape and drunk people cannot, under any circumstances, consent according to you, despite the fact that she initiated the venture. I'm going to say something that will probably get me a warning. You're a _______ (adjective) _______ (noun).


    I knew you'd make this thread enjoyable; good job.
    Last edited by garbage; 09-04-2013 at 02:37 PM. Reason: sorry, bro, quoted an insult that I had to remove
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  7. #77
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how females react when the sexual hold they have over males is no longer exclusive. We've already seen some complaining with that thread about males masturbating to online porn. Some women on this forum called those males losers, trying to shame them for opting out of a game they don't want to play.
    I can't see that it would make much difference. Women have been rather ineffective in exploiting that hold to get meaningful results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And, I'll play advocate of the devil: I guess I can see where Hillary comes from. I dont think anyone, especially Americans, discount the ultimate sacrifice those soldiers make. But they do choose to accept that risk and I should hope they get as prepped as possible for the circumstances they will be in and the consequences that can have. Does that mean I trivialize what they go through? Hell no, it takes a looooot of guts to do what they do.

    But it *is* their decision and they do get trained for those circumstances. Their families may support their decision, but it aint theirs to make. Nor do they get *any* training as to how to cope with the insecurity of knowing how their loved one is doing, or the fact that they get maimed or killed. And that is a hell of a lot of pain to deal with on your own when you've had NO help in how to cope. So yes, I do understand what she means.
    Not only that, but the women who have to live in war zones, and try to care for and protect their children and elders there, get no training for that. When the Army or the Rebels or the Insurgents or whoever comes to their neighborhood, they must defend themselves as best they can with no training and few weapons, after a lifetime of being assured their men would protect them. Lateralus' comment would make more sense were the violence of war confined to the front lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You want to know who has really "always been the primary victims of war"? People. Males AND females. It hurts everyone.
    Exactly. Yet societies for ages have trained at most one half of the population to deal with the violence of war. Would you rather face the enemy trained and armed, or untrained and essentially defenseless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Really, it's that rare? Is it more, less, or equally as rare as men hating/distrusting women?
    I think actual hate of the opposite gender is equally rare on both sides. I see a higher level of men distrusting women than the reverse, though. This distrust seems rooted not in hate, but rather in the perception that women are less capable, less reliable, less stable. Women in non-traditional professions are often trusted less than their male peers, for example, though fortunately that is starting to change.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #78
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what you posted. I'm just going to quote the parts where we might have disagreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I have no idea. Both populations are very rare in my experience, making comparisons between them difficult.
    I was just curious because I hear a lot of feminists talk about how there is so much misogyny, how the US has a misogynistic culture. That doesn't seem like a negligibly rare thing to me. So I think it would be safe to assume there are more men who hate women than women who hate men? Would that be an accurate assessment?



    I bring this video up not because I'm trying to argue that the US has a misandristic culture, I don't think it does. But I do think this is indicative of a cultural double standard. I cannot imagine a major network not immediately firing people who joked about mutilating women like this. I mean, this video isn't a light-hearted PG joke about dongles, it's pretty serious stuff, at least I would consider it to be pretty serious if I was the victim. It seems to me that feminists are winning the propaganda war pretty handily if things like this can be passed off as jokes, not misandry, but the converse would absolutely, positively be misogyny. Thoughts?

    Women are already hyper-aware that any accusation of rape will be met with a chorus of "she's lying" (which doesn't happen for things like physical assault), believe me.
    I don't think this is always true. The girls who falsely accused the cab driver of sexual assault in the OP didn't seem to be hyper aware of this. I think most women are honest and would never make a false accusation, but there is a subset that has no problem with it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #79
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I can't see that it would make much difference. Women have been rather ineffective in exploiting that hold to get meaningful results.
    I disagree, but I guess that depends on how you define meaningful results.

    Not only that, but the women who have to live in war zones, and try to care for and protect their children and elders there, get no training for that. When the Army or the Rebels or the Insurgents or whoever comes to their neighborhood, they must defend themselves as best they can with no training and few weapons, after a lifetime of being assured their men would protect them. Lateralus' comment would make more sense were the violence of war confined to the front lines.


    Exactly. Yet societies for ages have trained at most one half of the population to deal with the violence of war. Would you rather face the enemy trained and armed, or untrained and essentially defenseless?


    I think actual hate of the opposite gender is equally rare on both sides. I see a higher level of men distrusting women than the reverse, though. This distrust seems rooted not in hate, but rather in the perception that women are less capable, less reliable, less stable. Women in non-traditional professions are often trusted less than their male peers, for example, though fortunately that is starting to change.
    My comment would make more sense if what? I never claimed males were the primary victims. It is Hillary Clinton who claimed the opposite. I don't think either gender can be labeled as the "primary victim". War is a bad deal for everyone involved (except for the wealthy who profit off of it).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #80
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post


    I knew you'd make this thread enjoyable; good job.
    I think a lot less of you for this post. Just saying. I already didnt think a lot of him and that post didnt surprise me as a result.

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