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  1. #61
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I dunno about other women, but Id rather be killed than be raped. The sheer terror of being that much at the mercy of someone else who can do whatever he wants with your body is akin to torture. Thats why it is such a sensitive issue. You re not just damaging my body or stealing something from me, you're invading my body, in such an intimate way, something Id *only* share with someone I truly trust.(...Im doing the personalization thing again...for emphasis ). There is a reason that it is that traumatic that it can ruin lives. (Think of being stuck in a jail cell with some horny lifer there and having no way out for the entire night, who looks at you with the most creepy smile ever)

    As for your other comment, it is true that sadly most rapes are committed by the very people we trust and already often have power over us. However, random rape on the street is still pretty prevalent and the type that makes the newspapers due to its nature. There are certain streets here in Oslo where last year we had a spree of random rapes. I knew several of the victims as some of them worked for my bfs firm. In Paris, there was a streak of muslim rapes from young adult men who believed it was their right to rape their own women who were not wearing their head dress.

    And just purely out of my own experience:

    I've been force-kissed without consent in the middle of the street by 5 strangers in 5 years. I cant count the amount of times my ass or boobs were grabbed in public. Or the amount of times I was stopped in the middle of the street, at night, by a group of 4+ guys who were soliciting sex or dates from me.

    The amount of people that get eaten by grizzlies and tigers is negligible as well. But if you encounter one, are you going to keep walking and assume it aint going to eat you? Coz it only takes one being hungry enough..
    Your response reminded me of this laughable Hillary Clinton quote:

    Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat. Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known. Women are often the refugees from conflict and sometimes, more frequently in today’s warfare, victims. Women are often left with the responsibility, alone, of raising the children.
    The primary victims aren't the people who were killed. Nope, it's the women because for some reason it's just worse when a woman feels pain than when a man feels it. The tens of millions of men who died in wars in the 20th century? They're not primary victims. No, it's their mothers, wives, daughters and sisters who were at home while they were off fighting. The few men who survive never have to flee their homes, either. Male privilege!
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #62
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The wait for sex robots continues.
    It'll be interesting to see how females react when the sexual hold they have over males is no longer exclusive. We've already seen some complaining with that thread about males masturbating to online porn. Some women on this forum called those males losers, trying to shame them for opting out of a game they don't want to play.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #63
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your response reminded me of this laughable Hillary Clinton quote:



    The primary victims aren't the people who were killed. Nope, it's the women because for some reason it's just worse when a woman feels pain than when a man feels it. The tens of millions of men who died in war in the 20th century? They're not primary victims. No, it's their mothers, wives, daughters and sisters who were at home while they were off fighting.
    I dont see how they compare

    I stated that I'd rather be killed than be tortured, which is what rape essentially is. Many a man would agree with that statement. It is about the total state of helplessness you are in and the terror that you experience at the hands of someone who you *know* you cannot trust to care about what he does to your body or your psychological welfare. And it isnt *anything* you can prepare for or learn to come to terms with *just* in case it happens. Spies get special training for dealing with torture for a reason, as it is meant to traumatise you in the most brutal way.

    And, I'll play advocate of the devil: I guess I can see where Hillary comes from. I dont think anyone, especially Americans, discount the ultimate sacrifice those soldiers make. But they do choose to accept that risk and I should hope they get as prepped as possible for the circumstances they will be in and the consequences that can have. Does that mean I trivialize what they go through? Hell no, it takes a looooot of guts to do what they do.

    But it *is* their decision and they do get trained for those circumstances. Their families may support their decision, but it aint theirs to make. Nor do they get *any* training as to how to cope with the insecurity of knowing how their loved one is doing, or the fact that they get maimed or killed. And that is a hell of a lot of pain to deal with on your own when you've had NO help in how to cope. So yes, I do understand what she means.
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  4. #64
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Im all for women being clear about their refusal, though there is one caveat which makes this hard:

    When you get robbed, you hand over your purse in order to save your life. In some rape cases, especially with regards to true rapists...you hand over your body in order to survive. Saying no could cost you your life. Fighting could cost you your life (and career, reputation, etc etc) And these things are afterwards used against the woman in question. It would be of crucial importance, imho, for men to *learn* to recognize a woman's body signals when she is fearful or uncomfortable and to exercise caution to not trigger this defense mechanism AS WELL as teach women to fucking well stand up for themselves and say No in normal sex-solicitation situations.
    Consent under duress isn't consent, whether you are giving up your wallet, or your body. The courts might not respect this equivalence, but in that sense they are denying reality.

    That being said, when I help with women's self defense classes, the lead instructors always encourage women to fight back if assaulted. There is an element of not being an easy target here, in the sense that if a woman fights back, an assailant will move on to someone who won't, much as the burglar will move on to the next house if yours is locked up and well-lighted. The second consideration is that a woman should do all she can to prevent being moved to a more isolated place, where the attacker will have her even more at his mercy. The idea is that she may feel she is risking her life by resisting, but her life is very much at risk every minute she is with the attacker. Better to make her "last stand" right away, in as public a place as possible. Things are indeed harder when the duress is not physical. Being threatened with something like getting fired can't be countered with a poke to the eyes and a kick to the groin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I doubt they ever will do that, due to the mix of lowered inhibitions and mating instinct. It would become..almost impossible to follow up on, though it would be an interesting law to pass in order to change social and cultural trends wrt this dubious situation and could possibly save a lot of grief that way, yet cause infinitely more work and drama for our already overburdened legal system and the people involved. Not to mention finding evidence. Traffic cameras in bedrooms is just a wee bit overboard, Id say.
    I'm not suggesting such laws be passed, just pointing out the equivalence of the situations. A drunk driver who makes it safely home has done no harm, just like a drunk guy who takes "no" for an answer, or runs across a woman who really wants a roll in the hay. It is possible to do no harm in either situation, but the odds are greater since one's judgment is more likely to be impaired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought most rapes were committed by people who knew the victim. Shouldn't you be more worried about being raped by a friend or family member? If that's the case, then it's irrational to be so worried about being raped by strangers.
    The highlighted is true. This doesn't negate the threat from strangers, just reveals the greater threat from friends/acquaintances. The self-defense classes I mentioned above help women understand how to recognize the lead-in to an actual attack vs. someone who is just too close/pushy; and how to respond in that uncertain interim, to protect oneself without overreacting.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #65
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought most rapes were committed by people who knew the victim. Shouldn't you be more worried about being raped by a friend or family member? If that's the case, then it's irrational to be so worried about being raped by strangers. When I hear this type of stuff, about people being hyper-vigilant in 2013, I get annoyed. Statistically speaking, humans have never been less violent (see Steven Pinker's book- The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined). But the media gives us the impression that there's someone around every corner waiting to victimize you. It's actually a paradoxical consequence of our wealth. We now have the free time to ponder how dangerous the world is, when before we were too busy trying to survive to worry about it.

    What makes rape so special anyway? Why does that deserve a special classification that makes it worse than all other types of assaults or even murder? I'm sure people might respond to this by saying "it's dehumanizing", but isn't all violence dehumanizing? There actually is a pretty good explanation for it, but it doesn't have anything to do with it being more dehumanizing than any other type of violence. It has to do with the fact that a female's ability to reproduce has inherent value. We may not view the ability to reproduce as being as valuable in 2013, but in the past, having reproductively viable females in the population was the difference between thriving and extinction. This played a part in both a biological and cultural evolutionary feedback.

    I fully expect a feminist to call me a misogynist simply for asking the question "What makes rape special". That's one of the great things about feminism. It's all about the free exchange of ideas. LOL
    Lateralus, are you feeling that drawing attention to rape somehow dismisses the pain and severity of other assaults? Your responses are becoming a bit confusing and dismissive. Rape is one of the most psychologically damaging assaults. Men who get raped in prison are going to experience something worse psychologically than from assault, although both are horrifically damaging. You are right that all violence is dehumanizing. Acknowledging the severity of rape, of crossing intimate boundaries typically saved for trusted partners in no way dismisses the trauma of other assaults. Rape can also produce pregnancy in women. That's a more complex result than other assaults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your response reminded me of this laughable Hillary Clinton quote:

    The primary victims aren't the people who were killed. Nope, it's the women because for some reason it's just worse when a woman feels pain than when a man feels it. The tens of millions of men who died in war in the 20th century? They're not primary victims. No, it's their mothers, wives, daughters and sisters who were at home while they were off fighting. The few men who survive never have to flee their homes, either. Male privilege!
    I agree this quote is ridiculous, but it is completely unrelated to the discussion here, and I haven't read anyone's posts that are trying to dismiss the types of pain that men experience. The level of dismissiveness you are approaching needs to stop. @Amargith shared some rather personal examples of pain and you respond with complete dismissal. If you have personally experienced assault that should by no means be dismissed either.

    Both men and women have to be vigilant and self-protective in society. For women to say that their own needs for vigilance are different from men does not need to imply any sort of dismissal for the vigilance that men must have. It is important to stop assuming that the men's needs are being dismissed and expressing that assumption by being dismissive of the severity of rape.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how females react when the sexual hold they have over males is no longer exclusive. We've already seen some complaining with that thread about males masturbating to online porn. Some women on this forum called those males losers, trying to shame them for opting out of a game they don't want to play.
    I will enjoy the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments that will occur.

    The more that sexual hold erodes, the better for all of us.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I dont see how they compare

    I stated that I'd rather be killed than be tortured, which is what rape essentially is. Many a man would agree with that statement. It is about the total state of helplessness you are in and the terror that you experience at the hands of someone who you *know* you cannot trust to care about what he does to your body or your psychological welfare. And it isnt *anything* you can prepare for or learn to come to terms with *just* in case it happens. Spies get special training for dealing with torture for a reason, as it is meant to traumatise you in the most brutal way.
    I simply don't believe it. Unless you're suicidal or the torture has gone on for months (like what the US did in Abu Ghraib), the survival instinct is too strong. That's an easy statement to make when you behind the safety of your keyboard. If you had a gun pointed at your head while you were being raped, would you actually pull the trigger? I don't think so. Maybe some people would, but I think the vast majority would not.

    And, I'll play advocate of the devil: I guess I can see where Hillary comes from. I dont think anyone, especially Americans, discount the ultimate sacrifice those soldiers make. But they do choose to accept that risk and I should hope they get as prepped as possible for the circumstances they will be in and the consequences that can have. Does that mean I trivialize what they go through? Hell no, it takes a looooot of guts to do what they do.

    But it *is* their decision and they do get trained for those circumstances. Their families may support their decision, but it aint theirs to make. Nor do they get *any* training as to how to cope with the insecurity of knowing how their loved one is doing, or the fact that they get maimed or killed. And that is a hell of a lot of pain to deal with on your own when you've had NO help in how to cope. So yes, I do understand what she means.
    Right, all of those American men who were drafted fought in WWI and WWII because they chose to. Did you know that a volunteer-only military is a new concept? For pretty much...I don't know...100,000 years, men had to fight or die. What sort of choice is that? Remember, Hillary Clinton said women have ALWAYS been the primary victims of war.

    You want to know who has really "always been the primary victims of war"? People. Males AND females. It hurts everyone.

    Amargith, you may not consider yourself to be a feminist, but you do have many feminist perspectives on things. It's an example of how radical feminism has started to permeate Western culture. That an idea as simple as men and women are both victims in war is actually debatable because people think women have it worse, that's absolutely insane.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #68
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I simply don't believe it. Unless you're suicidal or the torture has gone on for months (like what the US did in Abu Ghraib), the survival instinct is too strong. That's an easy statement to make when you behind the safety of your keyboard. If you had a gun pointed at your head while you were being raped, would you actually pull the trigger? I don't think so. Maybe some people would, but I think the vast majority would not.
    And I'm telling you I'd rather die than suffer the years of trauma that follow after such an attack. And even more so when I was still younger and inexperienced with sex. It was scary and painful enough in a consensual situation the first time. I can't imagine going through that as a virgin and having to piece your life, your trust in men and your shame of your body together again after that. Not to mention carrying that bastards child and caring for it, and not punishing it for what his father did to me. I'm capable of great empathy, but I dunno if I would be capable of that. I'd rather he save me all of that, tbh, as I'm less terrified of dying. We all die at some point. It is a journey we all have to take. It is something I've come to terms with a long time ago as it is the way of nature. Sure, Id rather stick around still for a while and enjoy life while I can, of course.

    Right, all of those American men who were drafted fought in WWI and WWII because they chose to. Did you know that a volunteer-only military is a new concept? For pretty much...I don't know...100,000 years, men had to fight or die. What sort of choice is that? Remember, Hillary Clinton said women have ALWAYS been the primary victims of war.

    You want to know who has really "always been the primary victims of war"? People. Males AND females. It hurts everyone.

    Amargith, you may not consider yourself to be a feminist, but you do have many feminist perspectives on things. It's an example of how radical feminism has started to permeate Western culture. That an idea as simple as men and women are both victims in war is actually debatable because people think women have it worse, that's absolutely insane.
    Ah ok, no I meant right now, in this day and age. I remember my bf being drafted as this still exists in Norway and considering it incredibly unfair that men are to be drafted and women aren't, and that they are forced to this in the first place. I did not see the always, and in my defense, I did say I'd play devil's advocate as I always try to see all povs if at all possible and try to understand them.

    So I do agree with you, both genders lose when war is waged. No question about it.

    I'm not a feminist, L. We are on the same side, I swear. We want the same thing, we just are trying to, in our own way, find the best way to go forwards, and of course I'm going to be looking from my own perspective as a female and you from yours as male. This doesnt have to be a bad thing though. In fact, it ensures that both groups will have their interests protected while we forge a solution together. That is, as long as we remember the common goal we share
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  9. #69
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how females react when the sexual hold they have over males is no longer exclusive. We've already seen some complaining with that thread about males masturbating to online porn. Some women on this forum called those males losers, trying to shame them for opting out of a game they don't want to play.
    What does this have to do with feminism? Some women are against porn for feminist reasons, but the majority of women I've seen complaining about it are the old-fashioned, traditional gender roles type. Most feminists I know are OK with (or even personally enjoy) porn, at least from companies that treat their actors ethically and that portray both men and women acting in a non-degrading way.

    I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that:

    1) men on average have a slightly higher libido, but there is considerable overlap between sexes and libido also changes with age, medication, stress, etc, so either gender can have a higher libido in any given relationship (averages aren't worth much there)

    2) it sucks to not get as much sex as you want, regardless of gender, and ideally relationships would have similar libido of both people

    3) using sex in a manipulative way to get what you want is a really shitty thing to do, regardless of gender, and most people don't do it

    Now back to feminism. Woo!
    -end of thread-

  10. #70
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Lateralus, are you feeling that drawing attention to rape somehow dismisses the pain and severity of other assaults? Your responses are becoming a bit confusing and dismissive. Rape is one of the most psychologically damaging assaults. Men who get raped in prison are going to experience something worse psychologically than from assault, although both are horrifically damaging. You are right that all violence is dehumanizing. Acknowledging the severity of rape, of crossing intimate boundaries typically saved for trusted partners in no way dismisses the trauma of other assaults. Rape can also produce pregnancy in women. That's a more complex result than other assaults.
    Am I "feeling"? My feelings are irrelevant. It's quite clear that she was diminishing the harm of other assaults by claiming rape is the worst. It may not have been intentional, but that was the result. I've never died, so I don't "feel" personally slighted by this reasoning. I just find it confoundingly silly to argue that any violence is worse than murder. Rape is bad, but it's not the worst thing that can happen to a person. It's not even the worst kind of torture. I can think of many things worse than rape.

    There is nothing more psychologically damaging than death. It is the end of the psyche.

    I agree this quote is ridiculous, but it is completely unrelated to the discussion here, and I haven't read anyone's posts that are trying to dismiss the types of pain that men experience. The level of dismissiveness you are approaching needs to stop. @Amargith shared some rather personal examples of pain and you respond with complete dismissal. If you have personally experienced assault that should by no means be dismissed either.

    Both men and women have to be vigilant and self-protective in society. For women to say that their own needs for vigilance are different from men does not need to imply any sort of dismissal for the vigilance that men must have. It is important to stop assuming that the men's needs are being dismissed and expressing that assumption by being dismissive of the severity of rape.
    I knew it was only a matter of time before a feminist chastised me for my tone. There's already a thread for sharing personal experiences. I'm here to discuss ideas.

    She didn't say her own needs for vigilance are different. She said women have to be more vigilant because of rape (meaning because of gender). I don't believe it. If an average woman has to be more vigilant than an average man, it's because of the strength difference, not gender. What's ironic is earlier she said rape is about the strong vs weak, then she contradicts herself with this line of thinking.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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