User Tag List

First 4567816 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 189

  1. #51
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    I think there is a degree of implied consent in a relationship. This does NOT mean that rape is any less bad in a relationship, or that either party loses the right to say no at any time. I do think that the bar for active consent can be lower though, so things like initiating when drunk, half-asleep, etc would be sketchy/illegal in some places with a stranger, but not really an issue in a relationship. Kinda analogous to groping your wife in the kitchen vs. groping a stranger. Both could be sexual assault in some contexts, but the former is not a problem in most contexts whereas the latter is also OK in some situations, but definitely more risky (both morally and legally). In an ideal world you'd discuss it beforehand but in reality, hardly anyone does that. You have to use your judgement a lot of the time to figure out where the line is, both in a relationship and with strangers. "Passed out" seems like an obvious line to most people (I'd put the line earlier than that, but later than "tipsy"), although people have sex with passed out people often enough that it does need to be pointed out.

    I don't think it's fair to say that being drunk prevents consent in all situations, but the line gets murky enough that you should proceed with caution.
    -end of thread-

  2. #52
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    The wait for sex robots continues.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    How does it feel to be told that you have to be careful, non-stop coz otherwise you put yourself into that predicament? Thats what women get told *non-stop* whenever somethign happens and goes wrong with a guy. Is it so wrong that guys in this case have to do the same? Just coz you might have to adjust and learn when it is actually safe and *gauge* which woman is actually not going to do this crap to you? Also, lets not forget that atm a shitton of rapists still walk due to lack of evidence so her word aint enough. But ideally, and in theory, yes, this is how it should work. And we, on our side ,are equally frustrated that we non-stop have to worry about whether or not this is the male that is going to harm us. We do nothing but gauge if the man is actually trustworthy, coz guess what, you guys are fucking stronger and capable of harming us. All Im suggesting is the shoe on the other foot as well.

    And no, I dont think that this is ideally how things should go, coz of course there will be women who take advantage of this 'power', just as there are men who take advantage of theirs over women right now. But forgive me for wanting to share a piece of the misery with you. I'd love to be rid of this myself, trust me. And I do agree that there aint no easy solution to this problem where both parties can actually be treated the way they should be, with their freedoms intact.
    You think that only women need to be careful? That's the problem with your position, it's so ego-centric. You think the idea that men have to be careful is somehow a novel idea. Newsflash: It's part of living in a universe where pretty much everything is trying to kill us. Life on this planet has been dealing with this since the first single-celled organism came into existence.

    I'm one of the most careful people you'll ever meet, and that's without the added danger of being accused of a rape I didn't actually commit. But thanks for pointing out that I need to be careful, because men just go through life without a care in the world. Male privilege!

    I honestly disagree. As someone aware of the threat of rape, every damned day, I very much empathise with *anyone* who is raped, male or female. And it is reprehensible that men are not believed and shamed for not defending themselves better. But lets be honest here, the statistics show us that it is overwhelmingly a problem women deal with, unless you re in jail (and then public sympathy, though imho incorrectly so, is bound to be on the lower end). Thats the thing, L. This aint about women or men, this is about people. It just so happens that this is a touchy subject *because* it is an issue that mainly happens with men being the perpetrators and women being the victims.
    I agree that it's about people and about the strong vs the weak. But feminism makes it about men and women (which makes feminism sexist, IMO). People need to be divided up into all of these little blocks, and a hierarchy of privilege needs to be established to determine whose views should get the most consideration. The lower you are on the privilege hierarchy, the more relevant your opinion is. Facts, truth, those are of secondary importance. Facts are part of the patriarchy anyway.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You think that only women need to be careful? That's the problem with your position, it's so ego-centric. You think the idea that men have to be careful is somehow a novel idea. Newsflash: It's part of living in a universe where pretty much everything is trying to kill us. Life on this planet has been dealing with this since the first single-celled organism came into existence.

    I'm one of the most careful people you'll ever meet, and that's without the added danger of being accused of a rape I didn't actually commit. But thanks for pointing out that I need to be careful, because men just go through life without a care in the world. Male privilege!
    When it comes to this area? Hell yeah. I doubt men really understand what it is like to non-stop have to be careful who you deal with. I'm not oblivious to the fact that you do deal with situations we don't deal with, like violence in childhood due to duking it out when testosterone flares up. And I wouldn't want to be in your position there either. But then we have female outcasting and backstabbing to deal with. Im aware that your life aint all roses and peaches, but when it comes to this particular area, compared to women, you do not have anything remotely the same that we do not share in practically equally. Even with what I'm suggesting right now and what you are balking at atm, you *ONLY* have to be careful wrt to this situation when engaging a drunk woman, a situation that might be dubious and when you are actively seeking out a sexual encounter. I have to watch my gorram back the second I go out and encounter a male in the street, whether my mindset is on men and sex or not. So yes,

    I agree that it's about people. But feminism makes it about men and women. People need to be divided up into all of these little blocks, and a hierarchy of privilege needs to be established to determine whose views should get the most consideration. The lower you are on the privilege hierarchy, the more relevant your opinion is. Facts, truth, those are of secondary importance. Facts are part of the patriarchy anyway.
    Ahh, finally, something we can both agree on. This is why some feminists tend to not be that fond of me. Its about the power struggle imho, instead of what really matters.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #55
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Not really contributing here, but the whole "privilege hierarchy" can kiss my ass.

  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,556

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I think people know when they're doing wrong. I don't like it because it treats men like we're idiots. Don't do what clearly isn't right and none of this will happen. On the same token, it's not right to falsely accuse people of doing something they didn't, either.
    Public places often have posters discouraging bad/harmful behavior of one sort or another, everything from child abuse to suicide to littering. Do you take offense to all of those? Being not just accused but actually held accountable for things we didn't do is inherent in our system of laws, which are often based on the statistical behavior of the masses, and may not apply to you, me, or any other specific individual. At least you can ignore the posters if you know it doesn't apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The very fact that the people who responded to this crime brought up the fact that the woman should protect herself better and not be drunk, and mitigate the crime that way says that the mentality of ' she asked for it' is still very much prevalent amidst men. There are *still* cases where women who wore revealing clothes get told they asked for it in the courtroom and the rapist gets a get out of jail free card. Somehow there is still an old fashioned view in the world that if a woman dresses more shockingly than is the norm, she is available to any man and she doesn't get to say no coz she advertized her sexual availability.
    There is a big difference between telling a woman she "asked for it" and telling her she needs to be more assertive of her own rights. It's fine to expect men to understand that no means no, but for that to work, the woman has to be able to say it. It should be obvious that there is a big difference between behaviors that don't impair a woman's judgment and ability to say no (clothing, makeup, where she is, etc.) and those that do (getting drunk/high).

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I hear ya there. I've never been drunk in my life. However, if it is acceptable for a man to be drunk in our society and be safe, the same should be true for women. And yes, being drunk does not excuse you from the harm you do during that state. Drunk driving is punishable for both men and women.
    Drunk men are not always safe. They may not get raped, but often end up in fights, or even car accidents. The world is full of danger, and being drunk rarely helps one avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    But there's a difference, because drunk driving is always punishable, whereas drunk sex is totally fine when both people are consensual. So I don't think we can say that men shouldn't have sex with women when they're drunk (not to mention that this will never practically happen).
    Drunk driving is only punishable because the law says it is. We could outlaw "drunk sex" as well, though enforcement would certainly be a problem. Whether in sex or driving, though, the real problem is the greater likelihood of doing damage while drunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Which means women have to stop saying No's that mean 'Work a little harder for it and I will gladly go for it'
    What a concept - to say what you really mean. So many situations would be improved by this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is not like you ll go to jail for sleeping with a drunken person. The police aint going to monitor you on that. You ll go to jail if that drunken person later actually reports you as that that was not what she wouldve agreed to at that point if she had been able to make that choice. So know who and how you fuck. And be very sure that if you sleep with a drunken person, s/he actually won't mind when s/he wakes up the next morning. (the same is after all true for women taking advantage of drunk men)
    Dare I generalize the highlighted to the notion that sex is best done within a relationship? If rule #1 is to say what you really mean, rule #2 should be to know your partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You still haven't explained how changing a system requires hate.

    Yes, there are only two options. Hating men or shutting up and taking the abuse. There are no other options.
    Hate is not required for changing established systems, it is often simply a by-product of doing so. If the better alternative to taking the abuse is changing the system, that entails the acceptance of some hate from some people along the way, as the lesser evil. As @Amargith already wrote, if you (or anyone else) know of a way to change the system without this negative side-effect, please do share. Unfortunately, when one has built up a lifetime of fear and repression, it can often get released in hate, at least until one works through it to a more constructive response. On the other side, those who lose some power/advantage in the change of system often develop hate against those effecting the change. Again, an unconstructive response that it would be ideal to avoid.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #57
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    One of this simplest ways to understand this is for all the good guys to remember the bullies and jerks you have had to deal with in your life and their power struggles and mean behaviors. Those are often the same ones crossing the line with women. Imagine those same bullies being sexually attracted to you. That's the problem.

    It is a problem for guys who are well intentioned and try to act with respect and equality for both genders. There are many like that and they certainly should not be lumped into the whole group of jerks that have to be taught the most obvious aspects of having common decency.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #58
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    There is a big difference between telling a woman she "asked for it" and telling her she needs to be more assertive of her own rights. It's fine to expect men to understand that no means no, but for that to work, the woman has to be able to say it. It should be obvious that there is a big difference between behaviors that don't impair a woman's judgment and ability to say no (clothing, makeup, where she is, etc.) and those that do (getting drunk/high).
    I concur. But many women say no, and the defense of the man in court is 'she was asking for it' and it is accepted as mitigating circumstances. Ive even heard of a case where the rapist walked coz the woman was wearing 'tight jeans' and the judge concluded that she mustve cooperated to get those off in order to have sex. This line of argumentation was to show how much mitigation is used to deny the fact that No in fact means No, and that overruling someone's objections is fine as long as she was inviting sex with any guy in the eyes of the perpetrator.

    Im all for women being clear about their refusal, though there is one caveat which makes this hard:

    When you get robbed, you hand over your purse in order to save your life. In some rape cases, especially with regards to true rapists...you hand over your body in order to survive. Saying no could cost you your life. Fighting could cost you your life (and career, reputation, etc etc) And these things are afterwards used against the woman in question. It would be of crucial importance, imho, for men to *learn* to recognize a woman's body signals when she is fearful or uncomfortable and to exercise caution to not trigger this defense mechanism AS WELL as teach women to fucking well stand up for themselves and say No in normal sex-solicitation situations.

    Drunk men are not always safe. They may not get raped, but often end up in fights, or even car accidents. The world is full of danger, and being drunk rarely helps one avoid it.
    Very true, but you can still charge a man who assaulted you or caused damage through car accidents when you were drunk (though granted, drunk driving will get you a questionable defense at best as there is a zero tolerance on that). So in that respect, it is no different from rape.

    Drunk driving is only punishable because the law says it is. We could outlaw "drunk sex" as well, though enforcement would certainly be a problem. Whether in sex or driving, though, the real problem is the greater likelihood of doing damage while drunk.
    I doubt they ever will do that, due to the mix of lowered inhibitions and mating instinct. It would become..almost impossible to follow up on, though it would be an interesting law to pass in order to change social and cultural trends wrt this dubious situation and could possibly save a lot of grief that way, yet cause infinitely more work and drama for our already overburdened legal system and the people involved. Not to mention finding evidence. Traffic cameras in bedrooms is just a wee bit overboard, Id say.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    When it comes to this area? Hell yeah. I doubt men really understand what it is like to non-stop have to be careful who you deal with. I'm not oblivious to the fact that you do deal with situations we don't deal with, like violence in childhood due to duking it out when testosterone flares up. And I wouldn't want to be in your position there either. But then we have female outcasting and backstabbing to deal with. Im aware that your life aint all roses and peaches, but when it comes to this particular area, compared to women, you do not have anything remotely the same that we do not share in practically equally. Even with what I'm suggesting right now and what you are balking at atm, you *ONLY* have to be careful wrt to this situation when engaging a drunk woman, a situation that might be dubious and when you are actively seeking out a sexual encounter. I have to watch my gorram back the second I go out and encounter a male in the street, whether my mindset is on men and sex or not. So yes,
    I thought most rapes were committed by people who knew the victim. Shouldn't you be more worried about being raped by a friend or family member? If that's the case, then it's irrational to be so worried about being raped by strangers. When I hear this type of stuff, about people being hyper-vigilant in 2013, I get annoyed. Statistically speaking, humans have never been less violent (see Steven Pinker's book- The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined). But the media gives us the impression that there's someone around every corner waiting to victimize you. It's actually a paradoxical consequence of our wealth. We now have the free time to ponder how dangerous the world is, when before we were too busy trying to survive to worry about it.

    What makes rape so special anyway? Why does that deserve a special classification that makes it worse than all other types of assaults or even murder? I'm sure people might respond to this by saying "it's dehumanizing", but isn't all violence dehumanizing? There actually is a pretty good explanation for it, but it doesn't have anything to do with it being more dehumanizing than any other type of violence. It has to do with the fact that a female's ability to reproduce has inherent value. We may not view the ability to reproduce as being as valuable in 2013, but in the past, having reproductively viable females in the population was the difference between thriving and extinction. This played a part in both a biological and cultural evolutionary feedback.

    I fully expect a feminist to call me a misogynist simply for asking the question "What makes rape special". That's one of the great things about feminism. It's all about the free exchange of ideas. LOL
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought most rapes were committed by people who knew the victim. Shouldn't you be more worried about being raped by a friend or family member? If that's the case, then it's irrational to be so worried about being raped by strangers. When I hear this type of stuff, about people being hyper-vigilant in 2013, I get annoyed. Statistically speaking, humans have never been less violent (see Steven Pinker's book- The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined). But the media gives us the impression that there's someone around every corner waiting to victimize you.

    What makes rape so special anyway? Why does that deserve a special classification that makes it worse than all other types of assaults or even murder? I'm sure people might respond to this by saying "it's dehumanizing", but isn't all violence dehumanizing? There actually is a pretty good explanation for it, but it doesn't have anything to do with it being more dehumanizing than any other type of violence. It has to do with the fact that a female's ability to reproduce has inherent value. We may not view the ability to reproduce as being as valuable in 2013, but in the past, having reproductively viable females in the population was the difference between thriving and extinction. This played a part in both a biological and cultural evolutionary feedback.
    I dunno about other women, but Id rather be killed than be raped. The sheer terror of being that much at the mercy of someone else who can do whatever he wants with your body is akin to torture. Thats why it is such a sensitive issue. You re not just damaging my body or stealing something from me, you're invading my body, in such an intimate way, something Id *only* share with someone I truly trust.(...Im doing the personalization thing again...for emphasis ). There is a reason that it is that traumatic that it can ruin lives. (Think of being stuck in a jail cell with some horny lifer there and having no way out for the entire night, who looks at you with the most creepy smile ever)

    As for your other comment, it is true that sadly most rapes are committed by the very people we trust and already often have power over us. However, random rape on the street is still pretty prevalent and the type that makes the newspapers due to its nature. There are certain streets here in Oslo where last year we had a spree of random rapes. I knew several of the victims as some of them worked for my bfs firm. In Paris, there was a streak of muslim rapes from young adult men who believed it was their right to rape their own women who were not wearing their head dress.

    And just purely out of my own experience:

    I've been force-kissed without consent in the middle of the street by 5 strangers in 5 years. I cant count the amount of times my ass or boobs were grabbed in public. Or the amount of times I was stopped in the middle of the street, at night, by a group of 4+ guys who were soliciting sex or dates from me.

    The amount of people that get eaten by grizzlies and tigers is negligible as well. But if you encounter one, are you going to keep walking and assume it aint going to eat you? Coz it only takes one being hungry enough..
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

Similar Threads

  1. "Don't be that guy" / "don't be that girl"
    By asynartetic in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 01-27-2016, 11:21 PM
  2. Don't be that guy, please...
    By Rail Tracer in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-13-2013, 10:47 PM
  3. ISFJ girl....please don't be afraid!
    By Little Laura in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 04-07-2010, 11:55 AM
  4. BroRape Awareness: Don't be a Victim!
    By Nonsensical in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-23-2009, 10:14 PM
  5. To Be or Not to Be...That is the Question!!
    By Winds of Thor in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-11-2009, 05:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO