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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    A friend of mine often got his gf deliberately drunk, so he could have anal with her, something she normally didnt agree to. Imho, she wouldve been well within her right to charge him with rape.
    Yeah, I agree with that too.

    I think when more and more reports of this happening between men come to light there could be some sort of a change in popular opinions and not until then, people are to be used and objectified in that way, they arent things, acting that way IS rape. No ifs, no ands, no buts, no maybes. Simple as.

    There's a lot of the things which I've seen online and circulated in mens magazines of what "friends" have done to one another, usually the drunkest member of their party, which I think are so degraging and disgusting as to border on this level of abuse. The crazy thing about it is that I've often thought that the people totally drunk in the pictures could be dealing with some sort of trauma from what has happened already and then their "friends" act like that, its totally and utterly disgusting. Even if there's no trauma involved that's someone who has obviously trusted that individual and been betrayed in an absolutely atrocious fashion.

    The problem I think is that at some level the horror of this jars people, on some existential level, so if they havent hardened their hearts already they do start to and identify with the prepetrators because psychologically it makes them feel safe imagining they wont ever be a victim because they are the victimiser or can identify with them instead.

    World needs to grow the fuck up and contain this sort of things and positively roll it back. Lets see pictures of how people helped people out who were at risk and not exploited it.

  2. #42

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    I bet the people who're tacitly suggesting that women should not drink alcohol and be paragons of soberity arent conscious that they're towing a favourite party line of political islam.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think that is for your wife to decide. If she has mde it clear that she doesnt want you to engage her when she is drunk coz she feels she has no control over it as she is plastered, and you ignore her wishe,even though she is coming on to you, then yes.
    Really, so even with her coming onto me while drunk (by the way, I do not encourage her to drink, I don't even drink, myself), all but begging for sex, you believe she still has the option to decide it was not consensual despite those circumstances. Oh, should I also mention that I don't even like sex with drunk people, that I'd rather masturbate than have sex with a drunk person because no one is good at sex while drunk? So this was done out of a sense of duty, not because I wanted sex. But you believe she should have the option of accusing me of rape. What a wonderfully just world you want to live in. If the genders were reversed, people like you would be arguing that the person who felt pressured for sex could call it rape. The violent drunk man, out of control, forced himself on his wife.

    If your wife is ok with you sleeping with her as she is wasted, there wont be a problem as she wont charge you with rape. It is that simple. And when as a man, you cannot gauge for certain what the womans reaction to your advances will be, it might be wiser to forego it at all. After all, your wife is sure to sleep with you when she feels horny and is sober within the forseeable future (and if not, that is the kind of marriage you should either address or be ok with), so that one night won't matter, now will it?
    You have reading comprehension issues. I was responding to someone who said drunk people cannot consent, ever, under any circumstances. I was pointing out that drunk consent is not a black and white issue where drunk always equals rape. And now you twist this and turn it around, implying that I'm some sort of predator? See, this is why I can't stand feminism. Feminists view every situation and every word you speak in the worst possible light because you're trained to view women as victims and men as rapists. And you're trained to never relent with that outlook because if you do, you're "blaming the victim" because...well, women are always the victims and women must always be protected at the expense of men (see greenfairy's disgusting post). Feminism divides. It pits people against each other by putting people into all of these little boxes and proclaiming that certain demographics should have get more or less consideration than others based upon privilege. "Make sure you check your privilege."

    It is not like you ll go to jail for sleeping with a drunken person. The police aint going to monitor you on that. You ll go to jail if that drunken person later actually reports you as that that was not what she wouldve agreed to at that point if she had been able to make that choice. So know who and how you fuck. And be very sure that if you sleep with a drunken person, s/he actually won't mind when s/he wakes up the next morning. (the same is after all true for women taking advantage of drunk men)
    Well, I'm glad you gave lip service to men at the end there, even though we know it never actually happens. How enlightened of you.

    As for what the police are or are not monitoring...you must have your head in the sand. It's only a matter of time before this sort of stuff is monitored. The NSA already monitors everything we do online and over the phone, and the DEA has access to that information because drugs are the same as terrorism according to the US government. Given this trend, state and local police will soon have access to this information, as well. While our technology is becoming more useful and user-friendly, it is also becoming more intrusive. There are products coming to market (the Xbox One) that can track your movement, heart rate, etc...all in the name of convenience, of course. This is the sort of stuff I used to blow off as conspiracy theory nonsense, but with the recent revelations of what the NSA is actually doing, the conspiracy theorists were right for once.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Really, so even with her coming onto me while drunk (by the way, I do not encourage her to drink, I don't even drink, myself), all but begging for sex, you believe she still has the option to decide it was not consensual despite those circumstances. Oh, should I also mention that I don't even like sex with drunk people, that I'd rather masturbate than have sex with a drunk person because no one is good at sex while drunk? So this was done out of a sense of duty, not because I wanted sex. But you believe she should have the option of accusing me of rape. What a wonderfully just world you want to live in. If the genders were reversed, people like you would be arguing that the person who felt pressured for sex could call it rape. The violent drunk man, out of control, forced himself on his wife.
    Yes, I do. Coz rape within marriages does definitely occur. Now, I did mention earlier on in the thread that women who take advantage of this are the lowest of the low and I do believe that. I think you should have a clear agreement with your wife as to what happens when she is drunk, so there are no mistakes. And yes, I do believe that it is something that shouldn't be used in a divorce out of spite, of course not. And the same btw goes for her, just coz you're drunk and easily persuaded, doesnt mean she gets to jump your bones either unless she knows you're good with that. For the law, it has to be that black and white. Im well aware of the fact that in a relationship however you meet in the middle and compromise when one is horny and the other is eh about it, so yes I understand your predicament. But that is between you and your wife and what agreement you make, tbh.

    You have reading comprehension issues. I was responding to someone who said drunk people cannot consent, ever, under any circumstances. I was pointing out that drunk consent is not a black and white issue where drunk always equals rape. And now you twist this and turn it around, implying that I'm some sort of predator? See, this is why I can't stand feminism. Feminists view every situation and every word you speak in the worst possible light because you're trained to view women as victims and men as rapists. And you're trained to never relent with that outlook because if you do, you're "blaming the victim" because...well, women are always the victims and women must always be protected at the expense of men (see greenfairy's disgusting post). Feminism divides. It pits people against each other by putting people into all of these little boxes and proclaiming that certain demographics should have get more or less consideration than others based upon privilege. "Make sure you check your privilege."
    Tbh, I could say the same about you. That person responded to someone who was just as black and white in his statement imho, with one word, which you jumped on. And if you think of me as a feminist, or the fact that I would suggest at any given time that you are a predator, you are the one with reading issues and should ask *real* feminists what they think of me, coz I can tell you that they feel I defend men way too much on these types of issues.

    I didnt suggest you were a predator. I suggested that in that situation, given certain circumstances and without being careful, you certainly could get accused of rape or even accidentally override her free will. Rape is an intensely traumatic experience (as is going to jail for something you didnt do, im well aware), so it warrants extreme caution. In your example, your wife clearly wants you to and you are a sweetheart for indulging her, especially if it aint your cup of tea (it is just asm uch your right to say no here). And no, she shouldnt be capable of just charging you with rape out of spite (and im sure she wouldnt). But the matter of the fact remains that in most cases, the fun of one person for a night of sexual opportunity just does NOT weigh up against the trauma of rape of the other person when this kind of communication goes astray. So yes, it is worth it to err on the side of caution.


    Well, I'm glad you gave lip service to men at the end there, even though we know it never actually happens. How enlightened of you.

    As for what the police are or are not monitoring...you must have your head in the sand. It's only a matter of time before this sort of stuff is monitored. The NSA already monitors everything we do online and over the phone, and the DEA has access to that information because drugs are the same as terrorism according to the US government. Given this trend, state and local police will soon have access to this information, as well. While our technology is becoming more useful and user-friendly, it is also becoming more intrusive. There are products coming to market (the Xbox One) that can track your movement, heart rate, etc...all in the name of convenience, of course. This is the sort of stuff I used to blow off as conspiracy theory nonsense, but with the recent revelations of what the NSA is actually doing, the conspiracy theorists were right for once.
    I don't do lip service, it aint my thing. It is about protecting the free will of all people. Yes this situation happens more with men being the perpetrator due to the nature of our sexual biology, but this is just as true for you getting belligerently drunk, making a stupid joking advances at a woman you would normally consider vile and said woman then taking you up on that offer and forcing you beyond your limits coz you re too drunk to resist. And yes, you would probably not do this, but try to picture it for the sake of argument. This aint about men and women. It is about the act of defiling someone's body and exerting power without their permission over them. And the incredible trauma it causes. Thats it.

    As for the monitoring, I'm from Europe, so forgive me if I aint following American squabbling to a T. Here, as far as I am aware, this aint an issue, at least not to the extent that you re describing. And far be it from me to presume what American policies should be like. That is between you and your politicians
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    When I was 19, during my sophomore year in college, I was at a party with my girlfriend at the time. It came to light that she was cheating on me. It wasn't a serious relationship, but teenagers tend to over-dramatize stuff and I was upset about it. I wasn't angry, though. I was on the verge of crying. We had been talking about this outside, away from other people. And when we finished, we walked back inside and she told everyone I had hit her and started crying. She had not been crying outside, at all. She had been pretty cold. People got pretty upset about what she said. That I didn't get the crap beaten out of me right there was nothing more than luck. There happened to be a few people there who I knew pretty well, who knew that I wasn't a violent person (I get physically sick at the sight of blood) and they helped convince people that she was lying.

    In greenfairy's mind, the girl should have been believed over me, simply because of her gender. If I got the crap beat out of me because of her lie, that would be acceptable collateral damage. Per greenfairy: Hating men is a necessary step in achieving equality. Because hating a group of people simply for who they are never leads to bad results.

    It's not good to hate men, as in it's not going to be the end result, but it's a necessary step along the way.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #46
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    From what I recall, she meant that on the way to equality, eliminating patriarchal power abuse. Of course, some men who are raised with those beliefs are going to react against those changes, and of course women who are subjected to those old beliefs are going to react against them, which results in collateral damage between the two parties before the changes become part of the mainstream mentality and that collateral damage does get smoothed out. It is a natural reaction to change, unfortunately.

    But what would you have us do? Shut up and take the abuse, and consider it legit coz we're female and its always been this way? Coz otherwise we'll harm men in the process? There *is* no way to do this without that kind of backlash. If there is, believe me, we're totally open to it

    For reference, should the people of South Africa have kept going with Apartheid, because now the white people are being raped and murdered by vengeful blacks who hate their guts? It is horrendous and god almighty, it is the most vile part of human nature that rears its ugly head and I hope they bring every one of those murderers and rapists to justice, but in and of itself their hatred and aggression does have...an undeniable cause. That doesn't excuse their behavior in the slightest though. But the equalizing shift between black and white there should also not be faulted for being the direct trigger for these kind of heinous acts, or am I just weird?
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Yes, I do. Coz rape within marriages does definitely occur. Now, I did mention earlier on in the thread that women who take advantage of this are the lowest of the low and I do believe that. I think you should have a clear agreement with your wife as to what happens when she is drunk, so there are no mistakes. And yes, I do believe that it is something that shouldn't be used in a divorce out of spite, of course not. And the same btw goes for her, just coz you're drunk and easily persuaded, doesnt mean she gets to jump your bones either unless she knows you're good with that. For the law, it has to be that black and white. Im well aware of the fact that in a relationship however you meet in the middle and compromise when one is horny and the other is eh about it, so yes I understand your predicament. But that is between you and your wife and what agreement you make, tbh.
    So if we really want to be safe, we need to have a signed contract for each sexual encounter, because one of the parties (let's be honest, the woman) always has the option of deciding she was raped afterwards, even years after the fact...during divorce proceedings, perhaps. Oh, there I go with the victim blaming again. I'm such a misogynist.

    Tbh, I could say the same about you. That person responded to someone who was just as black and white in his statement imho, with one word, which you jumped on. And if you think of me as a feminist, or the fact that I would suggest at any given time that you are a predator, you are the one with reading issues and should ask *real* feminists what they think of me, coz I can tell you that they feel I defend men way too much on these types of issues.
    Wrong. He bolded a portion of lowtech redneck's response (but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent) and said "false". It's abundantly clear what Stanton Moore meant. He meant that "simply being drunk IS sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent". In Stanton Moore's mind drunk ALWAYS equals rape.

    I didnt suggest you were a predator. I suggested that in that situation, given certain circumstances and without being careful, you certainly could get accused of rape or even accidentally override her free will. Rape is an intensely traumatic experience (as is going to jail for something you didnt do, im well aware), so it warrants extreme caution. In your example, your wife clearly wants you to and you are a sweetheart for indulging her, especially if it aint your cup of tea (it is just asm uch your right to say no here). And no, she shouldnt be capable of just charging you with rape out of spite (and im sure she wouldnt). But the matter of the fact remains that in most cases, the fun of one person for a night of sexual opportunity just does NOT weigh up against the trauma of rape of the other person when this kind of communication goes astray. So yes, it is worth it to err on the side of caution.
    You should choose your pronouns better then because it certainly looked like it was personally directed at me.

    I don't do lip service, it aint my thing. It is about protecting the free will of all people. Yes this situation happens more with men being the perpetrator due to the nature of our sexual biology, but this is just as true for you getting belligerently drunk, making a stupid joking advances at a woman you would normally consider vile and said woman then taking you up on that offer and forcing you beyond your limits coz you re too drunk to resist. And yes, you would probably not do this, but try to picture it for the sake of argument. This aint about men and women. It is about the act of defiling someone's body and exerting power without their permission over them. And the incredible trauma it causes. Thats it.
    Throwing out the caveat "it happens to men, too" seems dishonest to me. People (men and women) only care about these issues when they women or children are the victims. Proclaiming to care when this stuff happen to men is just a way to make it seem like that person doesn't hate men. It's sort of like saying "I'm not racist, I have a black friend".

    As for the monitoring, I'm from Europe, so forgive me if I aint following American squabbling to a T. Here, as far as I am aware, this aint an issue, at least not to the extent that you re describing. And far be it from me to presume what American policies should be like. That is between you and your politicians
    The NSA is monitoring all of Europe's communications, too. In fact, the NSA monitoring program is only legal when it's directed at foreigners. The uproar in the US is because it was also directed at US citizens. Governments are skirting around their constitutions. The US monitors UK citizens and trades that for information the UK gained monitoring US citizens. The Germans are certainly in on this game, too. You're not safe.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-908648.html
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So if we really want to be safe, we need to have a signed contract for each sexual encounter, because one of the parties (let's be honest, the woman) always has the option of deciding she was raped afterwards, even years after the fact...during divorce proceedings, perhaps. Oh, there I go with the victim blaming again. I'm such a misogynist.
    How does it feel to be told that you have to be careful, non-stop coz otherwise you put yourself into that predicament? Thats what women get told *non-stop* whenever somethign happens and goes wrong with a guy. Is it so wrong that guys in this case have to do the same? Just coz you might have to adjust and learn when it is actually safe and *gauge* which woman is actually not going to do this crap to you? Also, lets not forget that atm a shitton of rapists still walk due to lack of evidence so her word aint enough. But ideally, and in theory, yes, this is how it should work. And we, on our side ,are equally frustrated that we non-stop have to worry about whether or not this is the male that is going to harm us. We do nothing but gauge if the man is actually trustworthy, coz guess what, you guys are fucking stronger and capable of harming us. All Im suggesting is the shoe on the other foot as well.

    And no, I dont think that this is ideally how things should go, coz of course there will be women who take advantage of this 'power', just as there are men who take advantage of theirs over women right now. But forgive me for wanting to share a piece of the misery with you. I'd love to be rid of this myself, trust me. And I do agree that there aint no easy solution to this problem where both parties can actually be treated the way they should be, with their freedoms intact.

    I posted this as a joke in the other thread, but Id say its relevant here as well:




    Wrong. He bolded a portion of lowtech redneck's response (but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent) and said "false". It's abundantly clear what Stanton Moore meant. He meant that "simply being drunk IS sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent". In Stanton Moore's mind drunk ALWAYS equals rape.
    Thats how you read it. It aint how I read it. Why dont we ask Stanton Moore how he would like it to be read?

    You should choose your pronouns better then because it certainly looked like it was personally directed at me.
    Point taken, I tend to argue to in a personal way as I find it enhances empathy on both sides, instead of it staying abstract to both parties, which can very much inhibit the capacity of both parties to see the other person's pov.

    Throwing out the caveat "it happens to men, too" seems dishonest to me. People (men and women) only care about these issues when they women or children are the victims. Proclaiming to care when this stuff happen to men is just a way to make it seem like that person doesn't hate men. It's sort of like saying "I'm not racist, I have a black friend".
    I honestly disagree. As someone aware of the threat of rape, every damned day, I very much empathise with *anyone* who is raped, male or female. And it is reprehensible that men are not believed and shamed for not defending themselves better. But lets be honest here, the statistics show us that it is overwhelmingly a problem women deal with, unless you re in jail (and then public sympathy, though imho incorrectly so, is bound to be on the lower end). Thats the thing, L. This aint about women or men, this is about people. It just so happens that this is a touchy subject *because* it is an issue that mainly happens with men being the perpetrators and women being the victims.


    The NSA is monitoring all of Europe's communications, too. In fact, the NSA monitoring program is only legal when it's directed at foreigners. The uproar in the US is because it was also directed at US citizens. Governments are skirting around their constitutions. The US monitors UK citizens and trades that for information the UK gained monitoring US citizens. The Germans are certainly in on this game, too. You're not safe.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-908648.html
    And we aint happy about that either. But the truth is that they have no authority or jurisdiction as to what happens with that information or how it is used within our laws. It would be nice if the U.S. would keep its nose out of our affairs, but as this topic has shown, we don't really live in that kind of world
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    From what I recall, she meant that on the way to equality, eliminating patriarchal power abuse. Of course, some men who are raised with those beliefs are going to react against those changes, and of course women who are subjected to those old beliefs are going to react against them, which results in collateral damage between the two parties before the changes become part of the mainstream mentality and that collateral damage does get smoothed out. It is a natural reaction to change, unfortunately.
    You still haven't explained how changing a system requires hate.

    But what would you have us do? Shut up and take the abuse, and consider it legit coz we're female and its always been this way? Coz otherwise we'll harm men in the process? There *is* no way to do this without that kind of backlash. If there is, believe me, we're totally open to it
    Yes, there are only two options. Hating men or shutting up and taking the abuse. There are no other options.

    For reference, should the people of South Africa have kept going with Apartheid, because now the white people are being raped and murdered by vengeful blacks who hate their guts? It is horrendous and god almighty, it is the most vile part of human nature that rears its ugly head and I hope they bring every one of those murderers and rapists to justice, but in and of itself their hatred and aggression does have...an undeniable cause. That doesn't excuse their behavior in the slightest though. But the equalizing shift between black and white there should also not be faulted for being the direct trigger for these kind of heinous acts, or am I just weird?
    This example fails because greenfairy said that hating men was NECESSARY. Hating white people was not necessary in affecting change in South Africa. The violence is an unfortunate result. Greenfairy's position, if transferred to South Africa, would have been "hating white people is a necessary step to achieve balance". So yeah...fail.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You still haven't explained how changing a system requires hate.


    Yes, there are only two options. Hating men or shutting up and taking the abuse. There are no other options.


    This example fails because greenfairy said that hating men was NECESSARY. Hating white people was not necessary in affecting change in South Africa. The violence is an unfortunate result. Greenfairy's position, if transferred to South Africa, would have been "hating white people is a necessary step to achieve balance". So yeah...fail.
    For many people, to accept the change, to go through the mentality shift and to be subjected to others who are still imposing the old system onto them and have sufffered abuse at the hands of it, hate is often on the way to acceptance and an almost unavoidable and dare I say necessary thing in order to move past what happened to them and find peace in the new system.

    If you look at the grieving process (which change, even if its not to do with death, asks for), it has five stages. Extreme anger is one of the last ones before Acceptance. Hate is often the expression of that stage.
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