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  1. #31
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I hear ya there. I've never been drunk in my life. However, if it is acceptable for a man to be drunk in our society and be safe, the same should be true for women. And yes, being drunk does not excuse you from the harm you do during that state. Drunk driving is punishable for both men and women.
    But there's a difference, because drunk driving is always punishable, whereas drunk sex is totally fine when both people are consensual. So I don't think we can say that men shouldn't have sex with women when they're drunk (not to mention that this will never practically happen).
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  2. #32
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Yes. I'm not excusing "doing things" to drunk people. I'm just saying that I think the first step, not just for those abused, but also those doing the "abusing" in preventing harm is to not put ourselves into situations that could potentially lead to such harm in the first place. In the same way that a drunk woman is more likely to let her defenses down and be more susceptible to abuse, a drunk man won't have the same inhibitions preventing him from abusing others, either.
    He would if it were part of his psyche and if he were versed enough in determining receptivity from females. Drinking only lowers inhibitions you have of fear and social propriety, not things that are part of your personality, from what I remember. There is a lot of confusion still as we are still transitioning from old cultural beliefs as to what constitutes receptivity from females and what the correct way of going about it is, as well as old entitlement issues that still persevere.

    I'm not talking about rapists being rapists here. Im talking about men who feel that women who behave like that should not whine when their no then gets overruled by the man who feels she has no right to 'tempt' him like that, due to old patriarchal values. He wont do that sober as he knows he ll get in trouble, but he still believes it within.

    Those tend to be the guys who ignore a 'No'. And yes, it does not help that there is still that social behavior from women to say 'no' to appear a good girl while she really means yes and needs 'persuading'. That just encourages that kind of thinking and behavior from men.

    There is plenty of drunk people that are able to recognize they are in no state to drive, despite having their inhibitions lowered, because they were taught and actually *believe* that it influences their ability to drive. Just as there are plenty of idiots still who believe they *always* have control, no matter how much alcohol they've had and put everyone at risk.
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  3. #33
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    But there's a difference, because drunk driving is always punishable, whereas drunk sex is totally fine when both people are consensual. So I don't think we can say that men shouldn't have sex with women when they're drunk (not to mention that this will never practically happen).
    True, which is where the addressing of ambiguity in receptivity and the illiteracy of men wrt signals needs to be addressed, imho. Ioh, stop shaming women for having sex so they can clearly advertise when they re up for it (and hopefully stop accusing guys for the heck of it), and stop confusing men with signals that their drunken skulls cannot process, as well as learn to take a No, even when you're drunk, and take every No as serious. Which means women have to stop saying No's that mean 'Work a little harder for it and I will gladly go for it'


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  4. #34
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Obviously alcohol makes these situations messy. It's hard to pin someone's intent when they're drunk and if neither party remembers the events clearly. It's best to be with a group of friends when you're putting yourself in that position, especially in public, because you do become more vulnerable. Both men and women are more vulnerable to being assaulted (sexually or otherwise), robbed, etc. when inebriated.

    The fact that the original "Don't be that guy" ad targeted white men only is wrong. People of all races and genders commit crimes, yes. The important thing here is being drunk isn't a crime. Raping someone is. If someone got really wasted and started a fight with you and you shot them, you're responsible for that murder. Not the drunken idiot with the mouth. So, while women and men should be responsible with their alcohol consumption, that has nothing to do with the fact that rape is a crime. The drunken idiot with the mouth may have been looking for a fight, but the guy with the gun took it WAY beyond the 'fun' drunk guy had in mind. Likewise, a drunken woman may be looking to flirt with a guy, but when he forces sex on her, he's taken it WAY beyond the 'fun' drunk girl had in mind. Drunk ladies can be involved in fights. Drunk men can flirt with women or other men. The genders don't matter. The races don't matter.

    Edit: Physically it's easier for men to rape women. Men are often stronger than women and it's much easier to force a penis into a woman than it is to force a vagina around something. Unless a woman is raping a guy with a dildo or something, which I'm sure might happen and is DEFINITELY rape. But generally speaking, I don't think it's a logical error to talk about men as the most common rapists. Talking specifically about white men is a huge problem. Anyone with a penis can do the same damage with it.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Very, very simple response to this bullshit.

    If you were to put a passed out drunk young, white, male in the place of the vulnerable female and a predatory male in the place of, well, the predatory male, are you still going to insist upon the irresponsibility of the vulnerable, potential victim being the crucial factor rather than the perpetrators behaviour and motivation?

    99% of mysogynists are gonna answer one way...

    I got 99 problems but blaming victims isnt one.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    Obviously alcohol makes these situations messy. It's hard to pin someone's intent when they're drunk and if neither party remembers the events clearly. It's best to be with a group of friends when you're putting yourself in that position, especially in public, because you do become more vulnerable. Both men and women are more vulnerable to being assaulted (sexually or otherwise), robbed, etc. when inebriated.

    The fact that the original "Don't be that guy" ad targeted white men only is wrong. People of all races and genders commit crimes, yes. The important thing here is being drunk isn't a crime. Raping someone is. If someone got really wasted and started a fight with you and you shot them, you're responsible for that murder. Not the drunken idiot with the mouth. So, while women and men should be responsible with their alcohol consumption, that has nothing to do with the fact that rape is a crime. The drunken idiot with the mouth may have been looking for a fight, but the guy with the gun took it WAY beyond the 'fun' drunk guy had in mind. Likewise, a drunken woman may be looking to flirt with a guy, but when he forces sex on her, he's taken it WAY beyond the 'fun' drunk girl had in mind. Drunk ladies can be involved in fights. Drunk men can flirt with women or other men. The genders don't matter. The races don't matter.

    Edit: Physically it's easier for men to rape women. Men are often stronger than women and it's much easier to force a penis into a woman than it is to force a vagina around something. Unless a woman is raping a guy with a dildo or something, which I'm sure might happen and is DEFINITELY rape. But generally speaking, I don't think it's a logical error to talk about men as the most common rapists. Talking specifically about white men is a huge problem. Anyone with a penis can do the same damage with it.
    I'm sure white men do rape though, that's a total red herring, the wrong sort of racial consciousness operating there.

    If there's one thing wrong with this campaign is its got too much of a "buddy" theme, it's friendly advice, I think it should be much more blunt and clear, dont be a rapist would be a better idea and hopefully that means something to most people and rape has not become a void and null idea which doesnt shock or doesnt shock any more than a punch up or similar violence.

    It is an especially violent crime, it is corrosive and transformative to the character of the perpetrator as much as the victim but obvioulsy the harm and violence is much more one sided. Without a lot of mental effort to avoid reality checks about being a rapist, a lot of rationalisation, I believe that most perpetrators would become sad drunks or take their lives, maybe both, I'd fine with that too. You cant willfully ignore someones conscent in matters like this without it fucking your head up, perhaps to the point of not being bothered about their conscent about other matters, in the UK psychologcial research and profiling found correlates between breaking and entering and burgulary and current or later sex offending in criminal careers.

    Articles like this sicken me because they're the "soft" side of that rationalisation, does being a man require you to take extra care and be wary of allegations etc., maybe, man the fuck up and exercise some fucking caution then. FFS.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The incidence (or lack thereof) of blackouts doesn't always correspond to one's level of intoxication, either relative to others or to one's own experience. In other words, you don't have to be in a complete stupor to black out the next day (nor do you always black out after drinking yourself into a stupor). I agree that targeting people who are substantially drunker than you are is predatory and immoral, but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent (or to be unaccountable for sexual assault).
    False.
    So you believe I should be in prison for having sex with my wife when she was drunk and came on to me. That is a reasonable conclusion given your post, since sex without consent is always rape and drunk people cannot, under any circumstances, consent according to you, despite the fact that she initiated the venture. I'm going to say something that will probably get me a warning. You're a _______ (adjective) _______ (noun).

    The issue of consent while intoxicated is not black and white. The relationship between the people having sex should be considered. Obviously when strangers are involved should be viewed differently than when people who are already in an intimate relationship are involved. Also, intoxication is not binary or even discrete. It is an analog continuum, and the effects of alcohol vary from person to person.
    Last edited by garbage; 09-04-2013 at 02:36 PM. Reason: replaced insult with a chance for readers to exercise their creativity
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you believe I should be in prison for having sex with my wife when she was drunk and came on to me. That is a reasonable conclusion given your post, since sex without consent is always rape and drunk people cannot, under any circumstances, consent according to you, despite the fact that she initiated the venture. I'm going to say something that will probably get me a warning. You're a _______ (adjective) _______ (noun).

    The issue of consent while intoxicated is not black and white. The relationship between the people having sex should be considered. Obviously when strangers are involved should be viewed differently than when people who are already in an intimate relationship are involved. Also, intoxication is not binary or even discrete. It is an analog continuum, and the effects of alcohol vary from person to person.
    A friend of mine often got his gf deliberately drunk, so he could have anal with her, something she normally didnt agree to. Imho, she wouldve been well within her right to charge him with rape.
    Last edited by garbage; 09-04-2013 at 02:37 PM. Reason: quoted a thing, sorry
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    A friend of mine often got his gf deliberately drunk, so he could have anal with her, something she normally didnt agree to. Imho, she wouldve been well within her right to charge him with rape.
    So what? That doesn't refute anything I posted.

    Do you agree with Stanton Moore? Do you believe I should be in prison?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #40
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So what? That doesn't refute anything I posted.

    Do you agree with Stanton Moore? Do you believe I should be in prison?
    I think that is for your wife to decide. If she has mde it clear that she doesnt want you to engage her when she is drunk coz she feels she has no control over it as she is plastered, and you ignore her wishe,even though she is coming on to you, then yes.

    If your wife is ok with you sleeping with her as she is wasted, there wont be a problem as she wont charge you with rape. It is that simple. And when as a man, you cannot gauge for certain what the womans reaction to your advances will be, it might be wiser to forego it at all. After all, your wife is sure to sleep with you when she feels horny and is sober within the forseeable future (and if not, that is the kind of marriage you should either address or be ok with), so that one night won't matter, now will it?

    It is not like you ll go to jail for sleeping with a drunken person. The police aint going to monitor you on that. You ll go to jail if that drunken person later actually reports you as that that was not what she wouldve agreed to at that point if she had been able to make that choice. So know who and how you fuck. And be very sure that if you sleep with a drunken person, s/he actually won't mind when s/he wakes up the next morning. (the same is after all true for women taking advantage of drunk men)
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