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  1. #21
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes. Consent obtained under any kind of duress is not real consent.

    It's fine to agree that the (usually female) victim of rape is never at fault for it. We must also then agree on what constitutes rape. It seems reasonable for guilt to lie with the (usually male) initiator. Yes, he may be drunk as well. If he is drunk and gets in his car and drives, the fact that he was drunk and perhaps not thinking straight does not exonerate him from DUI charges, or from any damage he might do. In the same spirit, a drunken man should not initiate sex.

    All of that being said, as I have mentioned elsewhere, the usual causality applies. Thefts, burglaries, and muggings are all the fault of the perpetrators, but we still remind people to remember their car keys, lock their house door, and stay out of rough parts of town late at night. Most people don't seem to take offense at this. We should similarly be able to advise women (and men if circumstances warrant), to stay sober (i.e. keep their wits about them), avoid certain places/people, etc. so as not to make it easy for a would-be rapist/assailant. Even in a world without sexism/misogyny, there would still be rape and assault, and it is wise to be cautious and situationally aware.
    Excellent points.

    And from what I've read, alcohol can seriously diminish a man's ability to evaluate the signals a woman is giving him. A guy can cross the line without initially realising it, because he's too drunk to see the obvious. Obviously both men and women need to be careful with alcohol intake, when it comes to being situationally aware.
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  2. #22
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The incidence (or lack thereof) of blackouts doesn't always correspond to one's level of intoxication, either relative to others or to one's own experience. In other words, you don't have to be in a complete stupor to black out the next day (nor do you always black out after drinking yourself into a stupor). I agree that targeting people who are substantially drunker than you are is predatory and immoral, but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent (or to be unaccountable for sexual assault).[/QUOTE]
    False.
    False.
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  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I think the number of unreported rapes far, far exceed the number of false reports.
    Yes, and this is why paranoia over false charges seems less justifiable than paranoia over drunken women being taken advantage of.

    I don't think the posters are meant to educate men who are rapists in the sense that they get off on violating women.
    I think they are meant to educate men who do not have ill intentions but don't have a good sense of what is a violation. If they recognize something is a violation, then they have the conscience & desire to avoid it. In a sense, this is crediting men by assuming that if they know what is good & right, they will want to do it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #24
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yes, and this is why paranoia over false charges seems less justifiable than paranoia over drunken women being taken advantage of.

    I don't think the posters are meant to educate men who are rapists in the sense that they get off on violating women.
    I think they are meant to educate men who do not have ill intentions but don't have a good sense of what is a violation. If they recognize something is a violation, then they have the conscience & desire to avoid it. In a sense, this is crediting men by assuming that if they know what is good & right, they will want to do it.
    I think people know when they're doing wrong. I don't like it because it treats men like we're idiots. Don't do what clearly isn't right and none of this will happen. On the same token, it's not right to falsely accuse people of doing something they didn't, either.
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  5. #25
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I think people know when they're doing wrong.
    100% disagree. Some people know some of the time.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #26
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I think people know when they're doing wrong. I don't like it because it treats men like we're idiots. Don't do what clearly isn't right and none of this will happen. On the same token, it's not right to falsely accuse people of doing something they didn't, either.
    It is mostly a cultural idea though of what is right and wrong in that day and age though. It used to be acceptable for a husband to demand sex and take it from his wife as that was part of the cultural agreement. This is no longer the case. But when those changes occur, the outdated mentality still needs to be addressed.

    The very fact that the people who responded to this crime brought up the fact that the woman should protect herself better and not be drunk, and mitigate the crime that way says that the mentality of ' she asked for it' is still very much prevalent amidst men. There are *still* cases where women who wore revealing clothes get told they asked for it in the courtroom and the rapist gets a get out of jail free card. Somehow there is still an old fashioned view in the world that if a woman dresses more shockingly than is the norm, she is available to any man and she doesn't get to say no coz she advertized her sexual availability. The fact that she might be interested in one specific guy, or just like those types of clothes, and isn't interested in *every* guy in the room seems to somehow not matter at all.

    And as long as those types of mentalities exists (she had it coming coz she dressed X, she shouldnt make herself vulnerable coz then the guy cannot help it, etc), those posters are not an insult, I'm sorry. Granted, they might not be relevant to the kind of man you are, and that is great. That is one less person (coz lets be honest here, there are many women who still need their mentality adjusted too) whose mentality needs a shift.
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  7. #27
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    100% disagree. Some people know some of the time.
    Well then, if they really didn't know that abusing a woman who was obviously drunk out of her mind was wrong, they have a lot of other problems that aren't going to be addressed by a poster. That person needs psychological help.
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  8. #28
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is mostly a cultural idea though of what is right and wrong in that day and age though. It used to be acceptable for a husband to demand sex and take it from his wife as that was part of the cultural agreement. This is no longer the case. But when those changes occur, the outdated mentality still needs to be addressed.

    The very fact that the people who responded to this crime brought up the fact that the woman should protect herself better and not be drunk, and mitigate the crime that way says that the mentality of ' she asked for it' is still very much prevalent amidst men. There are *still* cases where women who wore revealing clothes get told they asked for it in the courtroom and the rapist gets a get out of jail free card. Somehow there is still an old fashioned view in the world that if a woman dresses more shockingly than is the norm, she is available to any man and she doesn't get to say no coz she advertized her sexual availability. The fact that she might be interested in one specific guy, or just like those types of clothes, and isn't interested in *every* guy in the room seems to somehow not matter at all.

    And as long as those types of mentalities exists (she had it coming coz she dressed X, she shouldnt make herself vulnerable coz then the guy cannot help it, etc), those posters are not an insult, I'm sorry. Granted, they might not be relevant to the kind of man you are, and that is great. That is one less person (coz lets be honest here, there are many women who still need their mentality adjusted too) whose mentality needs a shift.
    I prefer not being around drunk people in the first place (male or female). Seems to help to prevent a lot of trouble. There's never been a drunk who's made a wise decision.
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  9. #29
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I prefer not being around drunk people in the first place (male or female). Seems to help to prevent a lot of trouble. There's never been a drunk who's made a wise decision.
    I hear ya there. I've never been drunk in my life. However, if it is acceptable for a man to be drunk in our society and be safe, the same should be true for women. And yes, being drunk does not excuse you from the harm you do during that state. Drunk driving is punishable for both men and women.
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  10. #30
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I hear ya there. I've never been drunk in my life. However, if it is acceptable for a man to be drunk in our society and be safe, the same should be true for women. And yes, being drunk does not excuse you from the harm you do during that state. Drunk driving is punishable for both men and women.
    Yes. I'm not excusing "doing things" to drunk people. I'm just saying that I think the first step, not just for those abused, but also those doing the "abusing" in preventing harm is to not put ourselves into situations that could potentially lead to such harm in the first place. In the same way that a drunk woman is more likely to let her defenses down and be more susceptible to abuse, a drunk man won't have the same inhibitions preventing him from abusing others, either.
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