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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    If a person was too drunk to remember what they did, they were too drunk to consent.
    The incidence (or lack thereof) of blackouts doesn't always correspond to one's level of intoxication, either relative to others or to one's own experience. In other words, you don't have to be in a complete stupor to black out the next day (nor do you always black out after drinking yourself into a stupor). I agree that targeting people who are substantially drunker than you are is predatory and immoral, but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent (or to be unaccountable for sexual assault).

  2. #12
    morose bourgeoisie
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    [QUOTE=lowtech redneck;2135692]The incidence (or lack thereof) of blackouts doesn't always correspond to one's level of intoxication, either relative to others or to one's own experience. In other words, you don't have to be in a complete stupor to black out the next day (nor do you always black out after drinking yourself into a stupor). I agree that targeting people who are substantially drunker than you are is predatory and immoral, but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent (or to be unaccountable for sexual assault).[/QUOTE]

    False.

  3. #13
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The incidence (or lack thereof) of blackouts doesn't always correspond to one's level of intoxication, either relative to others or to one's own experience. In other words, you don't have to be in a complete stupor to black out the next day (nor do you always black out after drinking yourself into a stupor).
    Do you have a source, or is this from personal experience? My own experience (both personal and everyone I've ever talked to about it) says the opposite, so much so that blacking out is synonymous with drinking irresponsibly/being inexperienced with alcohol/drinking your face off, and "black out drunk" is a common phrase that is equivalent to "incredibly drunk".

    It is definitely true that you can be in a complete stupor and not black out, but I have never heard of the opposite until now (barring things like complications with medications or date rape drugs).

    At which point someone becomes "too drunk to consent" is a different problem, and is a line drawn differently by different people (and legally differs in different countries).
    -end of thread-

  4. #14
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Honestly, I would have laughed at the "annoying possession" joke if it referred to either men or women, assuming they were of the opposite sex of the joke teller. Of course, I'm reading the infamous Wheel of Time series* right now, so I may be in a particularly susceptible frame of mind for those type of jokes.

    *Even so, what Tylin does to Mat definitely crosses the line (for those unfamiliar with the series, let's just say that Mat's consent is highly questionable, and is essentially played for laughs as a reverse bodice-ripper situation).

  5. #15
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Do you have a source, or is this from personal experience?
    Personal experience (and no, none of the 'black out after sex' variety).

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Stanton Moore;2135694]
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The incidence (or lack thereof) of blackouts doesn't always correspond to one's level of intoxication, either relative to others or to one's own experience. In other words, you don't have to be in a complete stupor to black out the next day (nor do you always black out after drinking yourself into a stupor). I agree that targeting people who are substantially drunker than you are is predatory and immoral, but simply being drunk is not sufficient impairment to be deemed incapable of giving consent (or to be unaccountable for sexual assault).[/QUOTE]

    False.
    How so?

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Do you have a source, or is this from personal experience? My own experience (both personal and everyone I've ever talked to about it) says the opposite, so much so that blacking out is synonymous with drinking irresponsibly/being inexperienced with alcohol/drinking your face off, and "black out drunk" is a common phrase that is equivalent to "incredibly drunk".
    My experience and the experience of everyone I know fits yours.

    Basically your short-term memory is futzed and you don't recall anything, if you don't pass out outright. I don't think I've ever had a real blackout, even in my most intense days of drinking in college. The only time I ever forgot anything was when I finally did get sick once, went back to my friends later and asked how many I had, and they told me I had about two more drinks that I don't remember drinking. (Well, actually, once they told me, I vaguely recalled one of them but not the last.)

    My dad, in his fits of alcoholism, seemed to have blackout moments with regularity, where he did not remember saying and doing things that everyone witnessed and heard.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    The article lost me at this:

    You're goddamn right that no matter how "careless and irresponsible" a woman is, she is always innocent of blame in being raped. Jesus.
    Yes.

    Both women and men should be a little more responsible in their drunken behavior, but if men were socially conditioned to only have sex with someone who was in a position to give clear consent, and to refuse it if she didn't, drunken "questionable" rape scenarios wouldn't happen. I think it may be true that in some women's minds it is acceptable to be promiscuous if they are drunk, because they are impressionable- meaning open to men's pressure, and in these cases they are putting responsibility for their sexuality onto men. This is irresponsible, but it is a product of the patriarchal culture which still exists. Yes women should be encouraged to take responsibility for their desires, but they shouldn't be blamed or criminalized for it.

    Also, as it's been pointed out, men are far less vulnerable to being victimized by women. It can happen, but only in extreme circumstances. Sexual assault just is a problem of men victimizing women, and there's nothing sexist about saying so. You can't really rape a man unless you do some serious bondage kind of scenario. If a woman takes advantage of a drunken man who regrets it then yeah, that is rape- but how often does that really happen?

    Men keep whining about how they are demonized by feminism, but that's not true. The patriarchal social institutions of oppression are not made up of a bunch of evil individual men- they are societal forces which combine to produce a collective state of being for women in a culture. Some men may have been wronged by things done in the name of feminism, which is unfortunate, but these are far outweighed by the women who suffer because of oppressive forces which are still in place. Until these are completely gone, some amount of collateral damage is just the reality. If we don't give women the benefit of the doubt, because the institutions of oppression are still partly in place, oppression will still exist. In a situation of imbalance of power, more power must be given to the more vulnerable entity in order to produce equality. That's just how it is.

    Women have been in a position of inequality in many parts of the world for centuries. The tide is starting to turn in some places, and in order to get to a place of equality there needs to be a backlash. It's not good to hate men, as in it's not going to be the end result, but it's a necessary step along the way. Eventually things will even out.

    The philosopher Hegel wrote about history in conjunction with his theory of logic, the dialectic method. In this there is a thesis or idea. Next comes the antithesis, the opposite of that idea. In the end people discover that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, ending in synthesis. The feminist movement is the same way. You have to allow for the antithesis of patriarchal oppression to take place in order to reach a synthesis.

  9. #19
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Honestly, I would have laughed at the "annoying possession" joke if it referred to either men or women, assuming they were of the opposite sex of the joke teller. Of course, I'm reading the infamous Wheel of Time series* right now, so I may be in a particularly susceptible frame of mind for those type of jokes.
    I think the joke was fine, but can you imagine what would have happened if it were a man in that room making an equivalent joke?
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The question of consent is a complex one. Women who are beaten and/or raped by their husbands often choose to stay in the relationship because of being psychologically compromised. If a woman consents to being assaulted, did an assault occur? I realize that intercourse isn't the same as getting beaten, but it is worth considering that even though we technically consider all adults to be capable of informed consent in their lives, people can be made vulnerable. Looking for the most vulnerable person to fuck is not moral. It is predatory.
    Yes. Consent obtained under any kind of duress is not real consent.

    It's fine to agree that the (usually female) victim of rape is never at fault for it. We must also then agree on what constitutes rape. It seems reasonable for guilt to lie with the (usually male) initiator. Yes, he may be drunk as well. If he is drunk and gets in his car and drives, the fact that he was drunk and perhaps not thinking straight does not exonerate him from DUI charges, or from any damage he might do. In the same spirit, a drunken man should not initiate sex.

    All of that being said, as I have mentioned elsewhere, the usual causality applies. Thefts, burglaries, and muggings are all the fault of the perpetrators, but we still remind people to remember their car keys, lock their house door, and stay out of rough parts of town late at night. Most people don't seem to take offense at this. We should similarly be able to advise women (and men if circumstances warrant), to stay sober (i.e. keep their wits about them), avoid certain places/people, etc. so as not to make it easy for a would-be rapist/assailant. Even in a world without sexism/misogyny, there would still be rape and assault, and it is wise to be cautious and situationally aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think the joke was fine, but can you imagine what would have happened if it were a man in that room making an equivalent joke?
    Better to be inclusive, regardless of the gender of the speaker: “Please silence anything in your possession that may be annoying to those around you. That includes cell phones, other electronic devices, your spouse …”

    I have seen both variations of a similar faux pas. I was at a business meeting involving about 70 people. I and a colleague from finance were the only women. The male colleague running the meeting greeted everyone with, "good morning, gentlemen". The finance woman and I yelled out, "Good morning, Greg!". He apologized right there, and bought us beer later. On the flip side, I am involved in a community group of primarily women. If a host/moderator addresses participants as "ladies", he/she is instantly reminded that some of the group are men. People have to be willing to speak up, as well as to accept such corrections.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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