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  1. #161
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Is there any quantifiable measure to back this statement up?
    Look at the world's population who is lying below the poverty line, and the limit to accessibility (to food, education, shelter, HEALTH), and then rethink that redundant question.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Look at the world's population who is lying below the poverty line, and the limit to accessibility (to food, education, shelter, HEALTH), and then rethink that redundant question.
    I'm talking about the US.

    And I'm talking about women, not those below the federal poverty line.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm talking about the US.

    And I'm talking about women, not those below the federal poverty line.
    That's bullshit, as Coriolis replied to Lat's comment about humans as a species. To which you replied. So, I don't know how you get to be the arbiter of the parameters all of a sudden, with USA and women only. And how it logically makes sense to you to make a mutually exclusive category, called "And I'm talking about women, not those below the federal poverty line", as if being a woman in the US precludes her from being below the federal poverty line.

    ?????

    You asked a hazy question asking for clear, quantifiable data. How does that work?

  4. #164
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How else would you describe a population where the creative potential of a significant portion of its members is not developed or used?
    With wealth comes opportunity. You've been able exercise your creative potential because you were born into a wealthy family (compared to the most of the world). You've had far more opportunity to exercise your creative potential than almost any man or woman in Afghanistan, for example.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That's bullshit, as Coriolis replied to Lat's comment about humans as a species. To which you replied. So, I don't know how you get to be the arbiter of the parameters all of a sudden, with USA and women only. And how it logically makes sense to you to make a mutually exclusive category, called "And I'm talking about women, not those below the federal poverty line", as if being a woman in the US precludes her from being below the federal poverty line.

    ?????

    You asked a hazy question asking for clear, quantifiable data. How does that work?
    Can you pump the brakes on your outrage train.

    I did not read the entire thread just the post talking about one hand tied behind our species back. I assumed given the analogy that they were talking abt women's issues globally (especially considering the OP topic).

    That one hand tied behind its back analogy falls apart in the western world with regards to women.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    ^ @DiscoBiscuit

    Not outrage, just frustrated confusion at such an asinine, hazy question. But I guess I should learn to be more patient with such displays of logical contradictions. My bad.

    But, yeah, even with those parameters, the gender inequality within USA is there (especially as it reflects equal opportunity - or lacking thereof):

    - Wage inequality
    - Political empowerment (this should be right up your ally) - only 18.3% of the 113th Congress are women. It's male dominated like a freaking Brotherhood. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3285600.html
    - Reproductive Rights (especially with the high rate of teen pregnancy in the USA compared to other similar countries like UK, Canada, Australia)
    - Policies around maternity leave
    - Inequality in women represented in the fields of "hard sciences"

    To name a few. When institutionalized, systematic marginalization occurs, opportunity is limited, which encompasses (but is not limited to) limiting ones creative potential.

    Because all of a sudden, you are telling your women, Be all that you can be, BUT..........you're swimming upstream in this, this, that, that, this, that, area, and so forth.

  7. #167
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    I've got to study for my series 7 exam for a few hours, but I will respond once finished.

    But for now have a look at this.... from Slate no less.

    The Gender Wage Gap Lie

    You know that “women make 77 cents to every man’s dollar” line you’ve heard a hundred times? It’s not true.


    How to get a more accurate measure? First, instead of comparing annual wages, start by comparing average weekly wages. This is considered a slightly more accurate measure because it eliminates variables like time off during the year or annual bonuses (and yes, men get higher bonuses, but let’s shelve that for a moment in our quest for a pure wage gap number). By this measure, women earn 81 percent of what men earn, although it varies widely by race. African-American women, for example, earn 94 percent of what African-American men earn in a typical week. Then, when you restrict the comparison to men and women working 40 hours a week, the gap narrows to 87 percent.

    But we’re still not close to measuring women “doing the same work as men.” For that, we’d have to adjust for many other factors that go into determining salary. Economists Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn did that in a recent paper, “The Gender Pay Gap.”.”They first accounted for education and experience. That didn’t shift the gap very much, because women generally have at least as much and usually more education than men, and since the 1980s they have been gaining the experience. The fact that men are more likely to be in unions and have their salaries protected accounts for about 4 percent of the gap. The big differences are in occupation and industry. Women congregate in different professions than men do, and the largely male professions tend to be higher-paying. If you account for those differences, and then compare a woman and a man doing the same job, the pay gap narrows to 91 percent. So, you could accurately say in that Obama ad that, “women get paid 91 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.”

    The point here is not that there is no wage inequality. But by focusing our outrage into a tidy, misleading statistic we’ve missed the actual challenges. It would in fact be much simpler if the problem were rank sexism and all you had to do was enlighten the nation’s bosses or throw the Equal Pay Act at them. But the 91 percent statistic suggests a much more complicated set of problems. Is it that women are choosing lower-paying professions or that our country values women’s professions less? And why do women work fewer hours? Is this all discrimination or, as economist Claudia Goldin likes to say, also a result of “rational choices” women make about how they want to conduct their lives.

    Goldin and Lawrence Katz have done about as close to an apples-to-apples comparison of men’s and women’s wages as exists. (They talk about it here in a Freakonomics discussion.) They tracked male and female MBAs graduating from the University of Chicago from 1990 to 2006. First they controlled for previous job experience, GPA, chosen profession, business-school course and job title. Right out of school, they found only a tiny differential in salary between men and women, which might be because of a little bit of lingering discrimination or because women are worse at negotiating starting salaries. But 10 to 15 years later, the gap widens to 40 percent, almost all of which is due to career interruptions and fewer hours. The gap is even wider for women business school graduates who marry very high earners. (Note: Never marry a rich man).

    If this midcareer gap is due to discrimination, it’s much deeper than “male boss looks at female hire and decides she is worth less, and then pats her male colleague on the back and slips him a bonus.” It’s the deeper, more systemic discrimination of inadequate family-leave policies and childcare options, of women defaulting to being the caretakers. Or of women deciding that are suited to be nurses and teachers but not doctors. And in that more complicated discussion, you have to leave room at least for the option of choice—that women just don’t want to work the same way men do.

  8. #168
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I've got to study for my series 7 exam for a few hours, but I will respond once finished.

    But for now have a look at this.... from Slate no less.

    The Gender Wage Gap Lie

    You know that “women make 77 cents to every man’s dollar” line you’ve heard a hundred times? It’s not true.
    I took 5 minutes to look into some of the sources she cites (props for that, at least) and quickly found evidence from her cited sources of a pay gap between men and women full-time weekly wages, divided by occupation. The pay of women ranges from 112% (food preparation and service) to 58% (real estate manager), with most numbers falling in the 70s or 80s, a smaller number in the 90s, and almost none over 100%. There are far, far, far more occupations where women are paid >10% less than men vs. the ones paid at 95% or higher. See table 18 here: http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook2011.htm

    From her article :

    First, instead of comparing annual wages, start by comparing average weekly wages. ...(this is the source I looked at)

    ...

    The big differences are in occupation and industry. Women congregate in different professions than men do, and the largely male professions tend to be higher-paying. If you account for those differences, and then compare a woman and a man doing the same job, the pay gap narrows to 91 percent.
    Odd that she uses that source for her median numbers and then says "but we can safely disregard that because it's not split up by occupation" when the same source has that information as well. It's almost as though she's trying to convince people rather than inform them of the facts.

    So, ya know, maybe you should do your own research instead of relying on hack jobs like this author.
    -end of thread-

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I took 5 minutes to look into some of the sources she cites (props for that, at least) and quickly found evidence from her cited sources of a pay gap between men and women full-time weekly wages, divided by occupation. The pay of women ranges from 112% (food preparation and service) to 58% (real estate manager), with most numbers falling in the 70s. There are far, far, far more occupations where women are paid >10% less than men vs. the ones paid at 95% or higher. See table 18 here: http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook2011.htm

    Odd that she uses that source for her median numbers and then says "but we can safely disregard that because it's not split up by occupation" when the same source has that information as well. It's almost as though she's trying to convince people rather than inform them of the facts.

    So, ya know, maybe you should do your own research instead of relying on hack jobs like this author.
    Just so you know, the exaggeration of the pay gap has been noted among many different public policy experts over the last several years. I had many articles to choose from but chose that one because it was from Slate and I expected you to give more credence to it because of that.

    I'm still studying, but when done I will find the studies needed to back up my point.

    Your assumption that I haven't done my research on this is laughable.

  10. #170
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm still studying, but when done I will find the studies needed to back up my point.
    Maybe you should focus on finding studies that look for the truth instead. You may find them less fun to read, but they are far more meaningful.
    -end of thread-

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