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  1. #141
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    like clockwork: so it begins again

    I didn't mean anything negative nor positive by that. just a simple observation is all

  2. #142
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I think the number of unreported rapes far, far exceed the number of false reports. I also think guys still need a lot of education on what consent is and isn't. Take 40 Year Old Virgin, a fairly mainstream comedy. Steve Carrell plays a 40 year old guy who's still a virgin after some mishaps discouraged him from dating earlier in life. His workmates find out about it and decide to take him under their wing. They take him clubbing to try to get him laid. Watch this scene.

    Partial transcript:

    Wow, this is pretty crowded.
    Yeah. Well, it's $9 beer night.
    Okay, look now.
    So, this is what's about to happen, all right?
    You about to go run down some drunk chicks, all right?
    And don't confuse that with tipsy. We talking about drunk.
    I want vomit in the hair, bruised-up knees.
    A broken heel is a plus.
    That's what you want to find, okay?
    ....
    And remember, it's
    more important that she's
    drunk than she's hot.
    For this first one.

    Sure, it's fiction,
    Fiction? Haven't you heard of rape frats?
    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/09/op...ernities-rape/

    25% of women will experience rape/attempted rape while at university in the US. (And 3% of men.)

    The "rapebait" e-mail could have been sent from almost any fraternity at almost any American college or university. A study I published in 2007 with my colleagues Jerry Tatum and J.T. Newberry found that fraternity men were three times more likely to commit rape than other men on college campuses. It was the third study showing that fraternity men are three times more likely to rape.

    The definition of "success" in the e-mail sounds eerily similar to what David Lisak identifies as rape in his research on profiling "undetected rapists" -- college men who have committed rape and/or attempted rape, an average of six times each, but are never reported and never are held accountable for their crimes.

    What was particularly remarkable about our study is that we found that it was the fraternity experience that led men to be more likely to rape. We traced entering freshmen from the time they got to campus through their first year of college. We asked them whether they committed acts of sexual violence before they got to college (many had). We then compared the rates of sexual assault among men who joined fraternities to the rates of sexual assault among men who did not join fraternities.

    What we found was highly instructive. Before they got to college, fraternity men were no different from other male students. They committed the same number of incidents of sexual assaults before college. But here's the difference. Guys who joined a fraternity then committed three times as many sexual assaults as those who didn't join. It is reasonable to conclude that fraternities turn men into guys more likely to rape. Our study confirmed that fraternities provide the culture of male peer support for violence against women that permits bad attitudes to become treacherous behavior. And that should concern everyone.


    Earlier this week young men at Georgia Tech received an email signed “In luring rapebait” that instructed them to, among other things, grab women “on the hips with your 2 hands and then let them grind against your dick.” In October of last year a woman filed a lawsuit against Wesleyan University citing a fraternity known on campus as the “rape factory.” At Miami University of Ohio someone thought it was a good idea hang a poster titled “Top Ten Ways to Get Away with Rape,” which closed with, “If your [sic] afraid the girl might identify you slit her throat.” A University of Vermont fraternity surveyed members in 2011 with this question: “If you could rape someone, who would it be?” At USC, two years ago, some boys released a Gullet Report (named for a “gullet,” defined as “a target’s mouth and throat. Most often pertains to a target’s throat capacity and it’s [sic] ability to gobble cock. If a target is known to have a good gullet, it can deep-throat dick extremely well. Good Gullet Girls (GGG) are always scooped up well before last call.”). For good measure they added some overtly racist material as well. Five years ago, Yale’s Zeta Psi fraternity took photos of members holding up signs reading, “We love Yale sluts.” Another fraternity had fun running around campus singing, “No means yes! Yes means anal!” Meanwhile, the school’s recommended punishment for sexual assault violations was a written reprimand. In 2012 Yale reached an agreement with the Department of Education, which launched a Title IX investigation in the wake of the song and similar incidents.

    None of this is unique to the United States. In the United Kingdom, the first part of the academic year is called Freshers’ Week, and similar behavior by boys is written off as lad culture. In early September, at St Mary’s University in Canada, more than 80 students sang this ditty during an orientation event: “Y is for ‘Your sister’, O is for ‘Oh so tight’, U is for ‘Underage’, N is for ‘No consent’, G is for ‘Grab that ass.’” Wales’ Cardiff Metropolitan University hung a poster for orientation week events that featured a man wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with the text: “I was raping a woman last night and she cried.”

    Young men are going to colleges and universities way too comfortable expressing themselves in exploitative, sexist ways that denigrate their female peers and are corrosive to the academic environment. In addition, the notion that rape is a serious crime for which they can be held responsible seems not to have entered their heads. Somehow we’ve gotten to the point where discussing a person’s “rape potential” is a thing.
    Full article:http://www.salon.com/2013/10/15/why_...rent_harmless/

  3. #143
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    To be clear, I don't think it's acceptable at all, whether between friends or on national television (and even a "forced apology" the next day shows that it isn't universally acceptable either). I was just pointing out why a similar joke about a woman would be commonly recognized as even less acceptable, due to the history (and ongoing presence) of widespread female genital mutilation that is at the same level as a man's penis being cut off. So you're way less likely to hear jokes about that. I can't really comment on why some people find it funny, because I do not, but I really doubt that they're laughing simply because a man is being hurt - my guess is that the "humour" is more related to "people doing bizarre things" with maybe a side of "look how edgy I am talking about penises on TV". I guess I can't say for sure, but I don't see any rationale for his "maleness" being the reason.

    He's more powerful than a 10 year old girl in a country with common FGM, which would be the parallel here. He's also (probably) more physically powerful than a woman in his situation would be likely to be. That isn't the point, though - the point is not at all that it's acceptable to joke about someone being mutilated because he's more powerful than some other people in the world. The point is that it's even less acceptable to joke about someone being mutilated when they are of a group that has historically been powerless to stop similar mutilations. That's why you'd have more of an outrage if a similar joke was made about a mutilated woman. Again, though, I don't think either is acceptable.
    The reason it's less acceptable to joke about females being mutilated than males is not because female genital mutilation exists. It's because females are inherently more valuable than males. Millions of years of evolution programmed that into us at an instinctual level. Those instincts don't go away overnight. Do I need to explain why this is the case?

    It's why things like this are possible:



    The woman is clearly the instigator of violence as she slaps the man first, but the man who merely retaliated is the one who is attacked. This sort of dynamic has been going on for millions of years. When a woman is threatened, she needs to be protected. When a man is threatened, if he can't protect himself he is worthless. The man who had his penis cut off suffered the ultimate form of emasculation, and because he wasn't strong enough to protect himself, he is now the butt of jokes.

    We can agree to disagree here. I do think equal treatment is best in most cases, but I also don't think it's right to ignore inherent (or culturally-derived) differences between groups that lead to unfair disadvantages. In general, these are better addressed by trying to fix the disadvantage at the source rather than using crude methods like affirmative action, but that's a whole other topic. In many areas the disadvantage isn't big enough to make a huge difference, but there can be a cumulative effect of either many small disadvantages exacerbating each other, or of a small initial difference snowballing (like maybe a small sexist bias in hiring frequency and/or starting salary for college grads, which have both been convincingly shown for STEM fields at the very least - I'll dig up the study if you like).
    The solution to this problem is to make the system more meritocratic (is that a word?), not less.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #144
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The woman is clearly the instigator of violence as she slaps the man first, but the man who merely retaliated is the one who is attacked. This sort of dynamic has been going on for millions of years. When a woman is threatened, she needs to be protected. When a man is threatened, if he can't protect himself he is worthless. The man who had his penis cut off suffered the ultimate form of emasculation, and because he wasn't strong enough to protect himself, he is now the butt of jokes.
    After we have spent a few millennia raising women to know how to protect themselves, and expecting them to do it, we can revisit this double standard.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #145
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    After we have spent a few millennia raising women to know how to protect themselves, and expecting them to do it, we can revisit this double standard.
    Being able to complain about being protected is a luxury of people in wealthy societies. Our distant ancestors were too busy trying to survive to concern themselves with such things. Were they sexist? Misogynistic? Only if evolution is also misogynistic.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #146
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Being able to complain about being protected is a luxury of people in wealthy societies. Our distant ancestors were too busy trying to survive to concern themselves with such things. Were they sexist? Misogynistic? Only if evolution is also misogynistic.
    Perhaps evolution has simply afforded our species the luxury of this kind of misogyny. Instead of enlisting everyone's efforts to stay safe together, we can afford to let one half of our population be mostly helpless, requiring the efforts of the other half to protect them (paradoxically, often from members of that other half. Not such a luxury.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #147
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Perhaps evolution has simply afforded our species the luxury of this kind of misogyny. Instead of enlisting everyone's efforts to stay safe together, we can afford to let one half of our population be mostly helpless, requiring the efforts of the other half to protect them (paradoxically, often from members of that other half. Not such a luxury.)
    Coriolis, you're usually better than this. Evolution clearly selected for sexual dimorphism. I'm sure you can come up with some good explanations as to why sexual dimorphism gave our species a survival advantage.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #148
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Coriolis, you're usually better than this. Evolution clearly selected for sexual dimorphism. I'm sure you can come up with some good explanations as to why sexual dimorphism gave our species a survival advantage.
    The correct explanation is genetic diversity. Operating as a species with one hand tied behind our back has been an unfortunate side effect.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #149
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Before anybody screams "off-topic"... this is pertinent:

    http://www.weforum.org/news/increase...ender-gap-2013

    There are huge differences. There are changes. There is still a clear gap even among the best (and the USA comes in 23rd).

    This can be heavily influenced by policy and cultural changes. It is not written in stone.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
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  10. #150
    Member chaoticbrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The correct explanation is genetic diversity. Operating as a species with one hand tied behind our back has been an unfortunate side effect.
    Well it's unfortunate in part because men are very much disposable in comparison to women, which was what lateralus's point was, wasn't it ?

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