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  1. #101
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So, if you cannot possibly monitor if a law is being broken, what is the practical purpose of its enaction?

    You understand that your proposal would require 1) setting a specific limit of alchool levels in your blood which means "drunkness" in the context of sex - which is going to be higher than "drunkness" in the case of car driving, of course; 2) monitoring this limit every time you want to have sex, for both partners; 3) having a differing limit in the case of romantic relationships vs sex with strangers; 4) being held liable of rape anytime this limit has not been measured, since any of the two parties could have been drunk.

    I'm just saying, this "neither party should have drunk sex in the context of a relationship" is far fetched. Because it leaves out the law's main point when it comes to sex, namely the presence of consent - so drunkness should not matter, only the presence of absence of consent. (of course, if you are passed out you cannot possibly give consent, so that kind of scenario is automatically taken into account).
    I see you neglected to consider the information in my later post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm not suggesting such laws be passed, just pointing out the equivalence of the situations. A drunk driver who makes it safely home has done no harm, just like a drunk guy who takes "no" for an answer, or runs across a woman who really wants a roll in the hay. It is possible to do no harm in either situation, but the odds are greater since one's judgment is more likely to be impaired.
    and are therefore arguing against a position I have not taken.

    In any case, enforcement of most traffic laws is so hit or miss, they are mostly a way to make money for the jurisdiction, or to target people individually or by group/demographic. It is already illegal to damage property or hurt people though careless driving, so in the same sense, the whole result of DUI is taken into account, and we shouldn't need special laws for that either.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Maybe people who like to get drunk should have a DNR signed ahead of time. People can give consent (or not) before they become unable to give consent.
    If you don't have enough trust in your partner not to make false accusations, perhaps you shouldn't be having sex with him/her.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #102
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    TL;DR: Article was so riddled with half truths that it's hard to find a place to begin.

    I feel like this was written by someone without a sense of proportionality and with a heavy dose of "everyone does this and nobody does that" and it will likely attract the fanfare of other people without a sense of proportionality.


    ...

    Husbands and wives make jokes at each other's expense all the time without it being an attack on the other. Sometimes it is, most the time it isn't actually meant to be belittling. Sometimes it can be a real microaggression.

    I've seen those posters and don't feel like it's a condemnation of all young white men. I saw it as a campaign against sexual assault and practices that frankly some people clearly don't understand, hence the fact that there is so much sexual assault. I never felt like I was being personally accused by the posters of anything. I didn't notice the race element.

    I do think it's relevant to question, however, how many men are doing what percent of the sexual assault? Is it a very small group, or is it a larger one?

    I wouldn't claim to understand the personal biases of whoever made those posters.

    I absolutely agree that women (and men) for that matter make questionable choices while drunk. I agree that if you get drunk, by your own choice, knowing what will happen, and you're consenting to something, you put yourself in that position. Personally, I see this as a grey area. I know for a fact that I've been with girls who we both have been drunk, had sex, and neither of us would ever call it rape. I also know that if she's messed up drunk and you're not and you're don't know each other very well - it's questionable at best to have sex.

    I agree that it's wrong for women to make false accusations or pass off their own regrettable behavior on others. I don't think that saying it's wrong to make false accusations is an attack on women. It's an ethical statement. That said, sometimes people claim real victims are lying and it causes issues.

    If you can't understand that, you're either so extremely partisan or so obtuse that I'm happy to ignore you.

    It's not irrelevant that the level of false accusation is supposedly pretty low.

    Women do try and take advantage of men, but it doesn't happen nearly as often. Get over yourself if there isn't equal representation. There isn't equal occurrence.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #103
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I've seen those posters and don't feel like it's a condemnation of all young white men. I saw it as a campaign against sexual assault and practices that frankly some people clearly don't understand, hence the fact that there is so much sexual assault. I never felt like I was being personally accused by the posters of anything. I didn't notice the race element.

    I do think it's relevant to question, however, how many men are doing what percent of the sexual assault? Is it a very small group, or is it a larger one?
    Someone commented that these posters are unlikely to have any effect on hard core, often serial rapists. That's probably true. They are likely to have more effect on date-rapists and guys who are just really pushy with girls. They might have as much effect on the friends of these guys (and girls), in signaling a shift in culture. Even racists nowadays know it's not acceptable to make racial slurs in many places, their actual convictions notwithstanding. It smacks a bit of political correctness, but if the same attitude of "I should be able to do it, but it's not acceptable" makes guys behave a bit more like gentlemen while they figure out the reasoning, that's not a bad thing.

    Just like with bullying, the intervention of bystanders can make a huge difference.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #104
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm not suggesting such laws be passed, just pointing out the equivalence of the situations. A drunk driver who makes it safely home has done no harm, just like a drunk guy who takes "no" for an answer, or runs across a woman who really wants a roll in the hay. It is possible to do no harm in either situation, but the odds are greater since one's judgment is more likely to be impaired.
    But the situations are not equivalent in that sense; consenting to sex while drunk (a state which many people on this thread seem to believe is the equivalent of hypnosis or demonic possesion) and regretting it later harms only yourself and (possibly) the other person in a consensual sexual encounter. Drunk-driving constitutes a threat to innocent bystanders. The two are only equivalent in the sense that capacity is not diminished enough to limit responsibility for choosing to either drink and drive or to have sex while intoxicated.

  5. #105
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    We've taught girls to be careful about sex and made them aware of their vulnerability to men for ages. Since things have balanced out a bit because of equal rights efforts and DNA testing, we also need to teach boys to be careful about sex and make them aware of their vulnerability to women. We talk to our kids (sons and daughters) about safety and about consent and about unacceptable power imbalances and about consequences and precautions. Teaching our sons about times when consent is iffy is not the same as treating them like they are rapists. It's protecting them and their potential partners from possible misunderstandings and the awful consequences that can go along with them. I don't have a problem with my white sons seeing public service ads featuring white men explaining consent. Hopefully, it's a no-brainer for them if we've done our job and if not, well, it's a lot better than nothing.

    As far as the race thing goes, when you are the majority, you are the 'generic person' for better or for worse. Most of the time it's for better, so fussing about the few times when it happens to be for worse is a little overwrought, IMO.

    I don't have any experience with being drunk or sleeping with people who drink. Myself, I think I'd err on the side of caution, but that's my general approach to most things in life and most people probably aren't going to do things that way. We had an issue of consent several years ago when I did not realize my husband was asleep and I felt terrible about it. Since that happened, we've discussed our wishes should one of us make advances while possibly being asleep so there shouldn't be any problems in the future. Even though he is my husband and we've been having sex for over twenty years, he, IMO, he has a right to be able to give or withdraw consent at any point. In my mind, that isn't even up for debate. It's a no-brainer.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #106
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    Are there any statistics as to what percentage of men commit sexual assault or rape etc...

    I think putting into perspective, how prevalent this behavior is among men would clarify many things.

    EDIT - I know and have known plenty of girls who like to drink and sling leg.

  7. #107
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    But the situations are not equivalent in that sense; consenting to sex while drunk (a state which many people on this thread seem to believe is the equivalent of hypnosis or demonic possesion) and regretting it later harms only yourself and (possibly) the other person in a consensual sexual encounter. Drunk-driving constitutes a threat to innocent bystanders. The two are only equivalent in the sense that capacity is not diminished enough to limit responsibility for choosing to either drink and drive or to have sex while intoxicated.
    The consequences of sex when you're not thinking straight can include things like unplanned pregnancy, STDs, and ruined relationships, all of which easily involve other people. The first two are especially likely if being drunk leads you to forget or misuse protection. Drunk sex and drunk driving are also equivalent in that the harms are statistical, not guaranteed on an individual basis. In the case of sex, the law is involved only when actual harm results, while for driving, one can be punished just for the probability. No doubt just because it is possible.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #108
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I absolutely agree that women (and men) for that matter make questionable choices while drunk. I agree that if you get drunk, by your own choice, knowing what will happen, and you're consenting to something, you put yourself in that position. Personally, I see this as a grey area. I know for a fact that I've been with girls who we both have been drunk, had sex, and neither of us would ever call it rape. I also know that if she's messed up drunk and you're not and you're don't know each other very well - it's questionable at best to have sex.
    Yeah, that's allright. The sketchier problem is in a context of a long-term relationship, or marriage. *Personally* I would think that there is a degree of implied consent whereby if we are both drunk and have a relationship, I'm not going to think if it's right to have sex if the other party doesn't tell me that she doesn't feel like it.

    . We had an issue of consent several years ago when I did not realize my husband was asleep and I felt terrible about it.
    Ahaha. I think that could be more "funny" than terrible. I do think this kind of stuff should be taken a bit more lightly in the context of a LTR where you trust your partner and everything is going well, compared to a random sexual encounter. It can't really be taken in isolation.

    They are likely to have more effect on date-rapists and guys who are just really pushy with girls.
    Nah. They'll only have effect on guys who wouldn't even think about raping or being pushy with women, because they'll be the ones who possess enough self-awareness. At least, that's my prediction.
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  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, that's allright. The sketchier problem is in a context of a long-term relationship, or marriage. *Personally* I would think that there is a degree of implied consent whereby if we are both drunk and have a relationship, I'm not going to think if it's right to have sex if the other party doesn't tell me that she doesn't feel like it.
    I'm not clear about the final sentence there, I'd think that no means no, whether married or not.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, that's allright. The sketchier problem is in a context of a long-term relationship, or marriage. *Personally* I would think that there is a degree of implied consent whereby if we are both drunk and have a relationship, I'm not going to think if it's right to have sex if the other party doesn't tell me that she doesn't feel like it.
    I'm not clear about the final sentence there, I'd think that no means no, whether married or not.

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