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  1. #11
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I can't get over the downward spiral Syria's been through in recent years. I remember when Bashar al-Assad first came to power, and the West was pretty hopeful; "He's a tech geek", they said, "and he's already liberalized the country a bit. Maybe he'll be the one to ease Syria into democracy."

    Now, people are fleeing Syria by the thousands. It's literally a war zone, when it used to be relatively stable and prosperous (if oppressive). It's starting to remind me of Iraq in that regard, and that comparison scares me.

    The only way I can see American intervention actually working would be if it was
    1) very fast,
    2) very successful, and
    3) the rebels committed themselves to leaving power if popular elections called for it.

    Even if all those conditions are met (which they likely won't be), there's the rebuilding process (expensive), the restructuring of Syrian alliances in the Middle East (potentially chaotic and dangerous).

    It's a shitshow.
    I don't think that the United States can afford to fight this war.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm worried we're going to end up killing civilians to punish a regime for killing civilians.
    That is a catch 22.

    Although I might have posted it some place already but I think this is fast going to be the US and allies matching their cruise missiles to the Russians anti-missile technology with Syria as the territory they give it all a try over.

    The thing is that I can understand why everyone in the west is war wary, man, it took long enough, there being no spells of peace really since WW2, but I think blair-bush just managed to estrange the last of the usual support for this kind of thing. On the other hand there's unheard of atrocities been committed here. Totally unheard of things, dropping white phospherous bombs on children? 346 confirmed child deaths and like 1345 or 1346 in all dead from two seperate chemical weapons attacks, if ever there was a "screw you guys" to the international community it was that.

    What's more is if the use of chemical attacks becomes "normalised" then proxy and friendly states will see nothing wrong with channelling them to terrorists as opposed to klashnikovs or explosives like they've supplied already you know?

    Now, I'd love to believe that waiting it out will result in some combined UN response, with Russia and China onboard, resulting the arrest, trial and execution for crimes against humanity of those responsible but they've not managed to nail those responsible for Rwandan and Bosnia war crimes yet and those were not even chemical weapons.

  3. #13
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm worried we're going to end up killing civilians to punish a regime for killing civilians.
    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    I say we should have cooled our jets and waited for more data analysis and a more multinational agreement on what to do.
    these

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I don't think that the United States can afford to fight this war.
    You are severely undervaluing the ideological might of the United States of America.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    America: World Police
    What's better, World: No Police?

  5. #15
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    You are severely undervaluing the ideological might of the United States of America.



    What's better, World: No Police?
    Why does the United States always have to intervene though? Why can't another country pick up the slack?

  6. #16
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    You are severely undervaluing the ideological might of the United States of America.



    What's better, World: No Police?
    No, what's better is a consensus and shared responsibility among nations. We are baring the financial and political ramifications of actions enforcing laws agreed upon by many governments.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    No, what's better is a consensus and shared responsibility among nations. We are baring the financial and political ramifications of actions of enforcing laws agreed upon many governments.
    Well, hopefully this stint of inaction will allow further discussion among the global community.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Why does the United States always have to intervene though? Why can't another country pick up the slack?
    I'm not sure.


  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    I thought I was on your ignore list. Can you please put me back on it please? It's sickening that you get to tell me that I am on your ignore list and not to interact with you but you get to quote me when you want to just to rub it on my face.

    One reply and you could simply tell me that I am in you fucking list.

    Just put me back on your ignore list and not quote me again. That helps a lot.
    Hmmm, I apparently had taken you off my list awhile ago, to give you yet one MORE chance and not be such a hard-nosed bitch about it...but if you don't want to get bitch-slapped by someone in the future, make more responsible comments and even occasionally quote a source (*gasp*). I didn't even see it was you until after I posted.

    Welcome back to Ignore hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ...
    Even if all those conditions are met (which they likely won't be), there's the rebuilding process (expensive), the restructuring of Syrian alliances in the Middle East (potentially chaotic and dangerous).

    It's a shitshow.
    That's what I mean -- it's a no-win for us regardless of our strategy. I hope we stay the hell out after whatever response is sent about the chemical warfare issue.

    You think we would have learned from prior interventions in similar situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OOn the other hand there's unheard of atrocities been committed here. Totally unheard of things, dropping white phospherous bombs on children? 346 confirmed child deaths and like 1345 or 1346 in all dead from two seperate chemical weapons attacks, if ever there was a "screw you guys" to the international community it was that.
    yeah, it's pretty bad. I think over 100,000 civilians have been killed (or is that the full death toll?) and 2 million people displaced in a country that barely tops 22 million total, and the figures you're quoting here about chemical attacks on civilians match what I've read elsewhere.

    What's more is if the use of chemical attacks becomes "normalised" then proxy and friendly states will see nothing wrong with channelling them to terrorists as opposed to klashnikovs or explosives like they've supplied already you know?
    Right. Sure, it's a debate over how one group should and shouldn't be allowed to kill another group, but I think it could create a world of hurt for this type of weaponry and warfare to be normalized.

    Now, I'd love to believe that waiting it out will result in some combined UN response, with Russia and China onboard, resulting the arrest, trial and execution for crimes against humanity of those responsible but they've not managed to nail those responsible for Rwandan and Bosnia war crimes yet and those were not even chemical weapons.
    I'm skeptical as well.
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  9. #19
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's what I mean -- it's a no-win for us regardless of our strategy. I hope we stay the hell out after whatever response is sent about the chemical warfare issue.
    I hope so too.

    Is that the only reason why we're going in? i.e. because Obama said it was a "red line" and they'd have to respond if they used chemical weapons, and then he realized that those words had tied him to future military strikes, whether he wanted them or not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You think we would have learned from prior interventions in similar situations.
    SERIOUSLY!



    I feel like that should have been the lesson of the entire second half of the 20th century -- e.g. the shit we pulled in Central and South America.
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  10. #20
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Is that the only reason why we're going in? i.e. because Obama said it was a "red line" and they'd have to respond if they used chemical weapons, and then he realized that those words had tied him to future military strikes, whether he wanted them or not?

    SERIOUSLY!
    I believe so. People underestimate the politics behind backing up what governments ¨threaten¨ to do. If Obama doesn´t do something what else won´t he do? Me personally, I wish he hadn´t uttered those words ¨red line¨ unless he was prepared to act unilaterally, which I don´t believe he was at the time of doing so.

    Tomahawk strike a military site or two, nothing major though. Then toss it to congress to delay.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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