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  1. #81
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Yes, if you're free to define a family by anyway you want without considering what it actually means to be human then, yes, you could have two families instead of one broken family.
    Excrement. If you are hoping to score any points, you need to tell me what being 'human' means to you. Then, I am sure, we will disagree, because your concept is loaded with unfounded yet dearly held ideas of what is supposed to be, while I take what works, preferably what works best for all parties involved, with no regard for lifeless institutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    But, all the social conditioning in the world can't really change the affect on the child.
    It can, actually; not that it were necessary. But the entire point is that your solution has a worse effect on the child than mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You think I'm insane for thinking this? Really?
    No. That was a roundabout way of saying let an impartial party be the judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Yes, of course it does. You think my view institutes slavery and I think it institutes an obligation that is fundamentally human.
    It is irrelevant, because, although it may reflect your views, it does not reflect mine.

  2. #82
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but there is not even space to discuss "gay" parenting here. Because it has been proved, by many many psychological studies, that "gay" parenting is not detrimental to children's education, it is just the same as "heterosexual" parenting (these definitions make me want to puke, because they totally ignore bisexuality, but ok). So this is fact. Not something up for discussion or opinion.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'm sorry, but there is not even space to discuss "gay" parenting here. Because it has been proved, by many many psychological studies, that "gay" parenting is not detrimental to children's education, it is just the same as "heterosexual" parenting (these definitions make me want to puke, because they totally ignore bisexuality, but ok). So this is fact. Not something up for discussion or opinion.
    I dont think that your sorry, not on the basis of how you open and how you close that paragraph, and I guess its all anyone needs to know when they're considering the views of people who're really pushing minority sexual preferences into the centre stage of discussions about parenting, politics, the norms of society at large, whatever.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'm sorry, but there is not even space to discuss "gay" parenting here. Because it has been proved, by many many psychological studies, that "gay" parenting is not detrimental to children's education, it is just the same as "heterosexual" parenting (these definitions make me want to puke, because they totally ignore bisexuality, but ok). So this is fact. Not something up for discussion or opinion.
    I dont think that your sorry, not on the basis of how you open and how you close that paragraph, and I guess its all anyone needs to know when they're considering the views of people who're really pushing minority sexual preferences into the centre stage of discussions about parenting, politics, the norms of society at large, whatever.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    There are many Churches denominations etc.. and religions.

    And last time I checked they played a rather large role in the gettin' hitched industry.
    What do you think of the German solution? If Germans want to get married, they need to do it in front of a marriage registrar. Marriage registrars are civil servants working for the city in which one wants to get married. A marriage performed in a church by a priest is legally void in all but extraordinary cases. People still want to get married in church as well, but it is not necessary, so they do it for shits and giggles only.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    you know what i want for my kids?

    to protect them from closed minded people who say things like that.

    from all the uncivilized bullshit parents in the world who raise bully kids, wife beaters, rapists and gang bangers

    and all the stupid people with zero foresight...zero care or concern for whom they choose to sleep around with, having baby after baby for the welfare check and treat them like unwanted stray dogs

    my spiritual beliefs tell me that is wrong. where's my rights?

    can't my children have access to independent thinkers with compassion and love for humanity instead? people that model the kind of morals that echo my spiritual beliefs?

    not everyone subscribes to your religion.
    Its not religion, unless evidence based psychology and sociology are religions.

    There's the evidence of history too, you know, why has homosexual parenting never registered as popular in the spontaneous order and become traditional?

    Homosexuality does not seem to do well as a norm for families, parenting, even individuals, apart from a small, small percentage of the population when you consider the hard facts, statistics and objective evidence of the long term and, in fact, I think the vitriolic, hostile associations of any neutral, I'm not even saying critical anymore but simply neutral, appraisal or appreciation of the facts as uncivilised, bigotted etc. is pretty telling too.

    If we consider the evidence of history its possible to be compassionate and humane without approving and advocating homosexuality to impressionable children, given the statistics that is only going to result in much more confusion and depression, at an earlier age, of children who feel no homosexual preferences.

    Since, I presume, you are not a fan of the confusion or suffering which the homosexual minority experience, purely by virtue of being a minority, and I dont believe that is anyones fault here, I'm not apportioning blame unlike some homosexuals or queer theorists. So why would you want that be generalised to the rest of the population? Seems kind of a strange form of egalitarianism which wants everyone to be equally injured and confused.

  7. #87
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not religion, unless evidence based psychology and sociology are religions.
    Can you find any of those studies that do not come from religious institutions/research centres?
    The only 'evidenced' based studies i can find that are anti same sex couple marriage and adoption are on religious sites. As such they are loaded with the same kind of tripe moralistic inaccurate vocabularly as used by all the anti claimants in this thread.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #88
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I really fail to see how it's at all like surgically altering anyone for any reason. Straight people can still get married to their hearts' content, and nobody is forcing anybody to get gay married. Gay couples getting married affects my ability to marry and raise a family with my husband in absolutely no way whatsoever.
    With respect Ivy, and I mean that despite the skepticism it's going to be met with purely by virtue of me being me and the preconceptions and prejudices that go with that, I think that may be a naive or perhaps optimistic way of thinking about these issues.

    I did think about that myself more recently though when a young person who was talking to me took up the statistical minority-majority aspect of this discussion in a manner I had not considered very carefully, they had said that if the changes being introduced were, as I have said for some time, aimed at satisfying a minority then so what? Purely by virtue of it being a minority they did not believe them important or mattering.

    If it all plays out that way then that's alright, I suppose, there's always been minorities, Mormon polygamists for instance, and they have not put a dent in the heterosexual hegemony which has well served the majority of people throughout the majority of human history but the difference is that I dont believe this is like those examples from human history, none of those in the Mormon example are lobbying and campaigning and seeking to garner political clout even among people who dont ascribe to their preferences.

    I know there's a lot of people who believe that this is such as a marginal issue that it appears like an exaggerated or nearly paranoid reaction is at root of anyone who is critical about it. Personally I think that's strongly associated with affect rather than reason, taking on the "mean bullies" and standing up for the "underdogs", some sort of reality check is required there in that case. I really think so.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    How are gay parents different physically for being allowed to marry? Because surely you don't think that disallowing gay marriage also disallows gay parenting. My husband had gay dads way back in the 70s. (He turned out fine, for the record. Also straight.)
    Do you think your husband's experience is typical? Do you think it can be generalised to everyone else?

    Why not the example of the gay couple in the UK who fostered three or four boys but systematically abused them all in their adolescence?

    I wouldnt for a moment suggest that either individual example would be a good basis for public policy, the evidence is eschew when people reach conclusions on the basis of individual cases known to them, most of the time examples can be and will be found to support on side or another of the argument.

    The abuse example I used is admittedly extreme, and I probably sully my point by using it but its one that comes to mind, alternatively why not simply consider the dirth of accounts from homosexuals about how they struggled growing up in homes in which they had two parents of opposite sex, practicing heterosexuals, and how it impacted upon their own development of sexual preference? If you're going to consider those as valid, would it not be reasonable to presume that it is likely that these accounts could be and will be mirrored by heterosexuals growing up with same sex parents who are practicing homosexuals?

    What bothers me about these issues are not so much the conclusions that people reach but their failure to "show their working out", generally there's not much in the way of thinking about it, I mean seriously and properly thinking about it, not relying upon "I knew someone once" or "I had a favourite uncle" etc. etc.

    Like just about every other topic people reach their conclusions, however they have, they dont appreciate any shit disturbing and dont want to think much about them anymore besides a simple restatement, defend, restate, defend and arent particularly troubled to think and think again having doubts about everything.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Please, people, just ignore Lark. He cannot help it.

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