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  1. #51
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    Apparently constitutional concerns aren't common among the lay people.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No, it's not a matter of satisfying some imaginary rule or entity it's a matter of love and self-sacrifice for the sake of others.
    It is kind of ironic that those for whose sake you wish to sacrifice are the ones who suffer from it. A dysfunctional family is good for no one, and if it is not maintained to satisfy some imaginary rule or entity (which would be idiotic), it is sheer madness to maintain it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You say my view produces slaves and I say your view produces lonely self-loving fools who are slaves to their own whims.
    I disagree. However, he who is slave to his own whims is actually no slave at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Apparently constitutional concerns aren't common among the lay people.
    Apparently logical and empirical concerns aren't common among conservatives. Great line, right?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    ... fuck give it a rest, for like five God damn minutes. Give me ... reasons [that] benefit everyone to justify your policies, not:



    Carry on.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post


    Carry on.
    I'm bad with typos, but usually edit my stuff, unless I'm busy with the real world.

  5. #55
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is kind of ironic that those for whose sake you wish to sacrifice are the ones who suffer from it. A dysfunctional family is good for no one, and if it is not maintained to satisfy some imaginary rule or entity (which would be idiotic), it is sheer madness to maintain it at all.
    I'm not defending the virtue of dysfunctional families, I'm defending the virtue of families. I believe a dysfunctional family together is better off than a dysfunctional family apart. You can pity my experience all you want, but I have seen the ability of broken relationships to bring forth fruit through perseverance alone.


    This really is a fundemental difference in our philisophy which I think is well examined in this article that analyzes Milan Kundera's writing along with Nietzche.

    In Milan Kundera’s The Unbearable Lightness of Being, the character Tomas is an inveterate womanizer, a man who takes notes on the particular physical differences, however minute, of the women he seduces. He is light, and free, and must find some difference to be able to distract himself from the boredom of it all. One of his conquests, the naive Tereza, manages to spend the night with him, although he had never spent the night with a lover, as it was one of his cardinal rules that he “should exclude all love from his life.” And here she was, asleep, holding his hand, linking herself to him, clutching on, weighing him down, and “an aura of hitherto unknown happiness” finds him. So much so that they both begin to look forward to sleeping together, of sharing a bed and invariably holding hands; the narrator says, in a poignant line, that “I might even say that the goal of their lovemaking was not so much pleasure as the sleep that followed it.”

    He’s happy as he loses his lightness, as he becomes heavy, and real.

    But is it worth it? Kundera opens the book by referencing Nietzsche’s doctrine of eternal return and its heaviness, asking if heaviness or lightness is preferable.

    "But is heaviness truly deplorable and lightness splendid? The heaviest of burdens crushes us, we sink beneath it, it pins us to the ground.… The heavier the burden, the closer our lives come to the earth, the more real and truthful they become. Conversely, the absolute absence of a burden causes man to be lighter than air, to soar into the heights, take leave of the earth and his earthly being, and become only half real, his movements as free as they are insignificant. What then shall we choose? Weight or lightness?"

    As I look at the way we are now, I see a people who wish to be light, free from the weightiness of responsibility, limits, duties. We want sex without fertility, food without calories, endless consumer goods without (observable) environmental degradation, religion without law, divorce without fault, mobility without loneliness, bodies without aging, entertainments without limits. We want our freedoms to be endless and without cost, allowing us to float free from now this to now that, casting off identities and responsibilities like old clothes discarded.

    Of course, to those who are unbearably light, nothing is more repugnant than weight, but we are in our very natures called to weightiness, for we are moral agents, responsible for all.


    Whether you think of the text as Holy Writ or mere literature of the past, the early chapters of Genesis indicate to us with bracing clarity the choice before us now. The human emerges from the dirt and yet is somehow responsible for the dirt, capable of tending, keeping, filling, and ordering the very dirt from which he is. The human is told to build, till, improve, cultivate–to husband (in the old sense) the cosmos as its responsible priest. And yet he is to exercise this creativity within the limits of fidelity, for he is steward and not Creator, always dependent, and obligated to be responsible.

    How will we make our world and ourselves? Will be we unbearably free, infinitely light, using our creative capacities to cast off our responsible nature and soar into the beyond? Or will we be heavy, using our skill to tie ourselves into the loam from which we came, hoping to be faithful to obligation, duty, and the task of responsibility? Will the tapestry we weave have substance, or just the play of newness, with the shuttle undoing all that has been created before?

    I want to be heavy. I want my children to be heavy. I want my life to be one of creative fidelity, finding new ways to be obligated and woven into the fabric of the world and the lives of my lover, my children, my neighbors, and friends.

    And yet, weight is difficult to bear, especially for those of us weaned in an age of the insufferably light.
    http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/20...eighty-people/
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #56
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    I feel like this whole thread was a lure. I think Disco understands very well and just wants to fight .... proffering his head for those with spikes who can not resist peering through an open door.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    I feel like this whole thread was a lure. I think Disco understands very well and just wants to fight .... proffering his head for those with spikes who can not resist peering through an open door.
    It seems to be that's all DiscoBiscuit ever does. I can't tell if he really believes what he says or not, but it doesn't really seem to matter either way. It's more important to keep the argument going than to reach any meaningful conclusion.

  8. #58
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    I had quite a pleasant convo with Nico.

  9. #59
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    It seems to be that's all DiscoBiscuit ever does. I can't tell if he really believes what he says or not, but it doesn't really seem to matter either way. It's more important to keep the argument going than to reach any meaningful conclusion.
    Ah yes, the wholepoint of debate being to debate and not reach consensus. It is possible to sometimes reach into people though... through all the walls and barriers of years of built up bigotry... just sometimes. I myself have learned a lot from places such as these... maybe not changed any core values but i certainly have thought a great deal more in different an unexpected directions.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #60
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    I was trying to present the best form of the argument, and actually came to a conclusion with that.

    The rest of you animals wanted to scrap, and I like taking on several at a time.

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