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  1. #161
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Religious marriage is a sacrament while civil marriage is a contract.
    And a sacrament and a contract together is a covenant.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #162
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Most where I live would say religion has a lot to do with their marriage...
    Okay. Does that change the point I was trying to make? What the people directly around you associate with marriage isn't representative of the general population. Just as, I'm sure, what the people directly around me associate with marriage isn't representative of the general population- because I've never belonged to a church or a religion. But "marriage" is a term I am familiar with and use regularly, a term I have used in regard to my own situation (I was married), and to describe the union of people I know who aren't any more devoted to any particular faith than I am myself.

    When someone asks me if I've ever been married, it would never occur to me to say, "No, I'm not religious" or "No, I'm agnostic." If someone were to ask me if I've ever been baptized- then I might say, "No, I'm agnostic".....because baptism, in my mind, is by default rather clearly a religious rite of passage. But marriage isn't. At least, it isn't to a big enough percentage of the population that the notion of it being a religious rite of passage is a foreign concept to many people- myself included.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #163
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    There is definitely a religious element to my marriage. That's also true of most of the gay couples I know (since most of the gay couples I know, I met through my church).

  4. #164
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    It might be interesting to start a poll (eta: not that a poll in this forum would do much to accurately reflect percentages 'out there', but it might be interesting nonetheless). The term "marriage" just really doesn't begin to have a religious association to me, and it's a little surprising to hear that it does for others.

    Is it just that the ceremony is religious? Or is it about the actual romantic relationship? What is this religious association? (Kind of a side tangent, but I think it's germaine?)

    [eta:] For clarification, I should add- it's not surprising that *some* people consider it a religious rite of passage. This has always been clear to me. What's surprising to me is that some people might actually consider *all* marriage a religious rite of passage. I have always assumed "marriage" is the umbrella of "romantic relationship"- for some people, religion is strongly tied into it. For others, religion has nothing to do with it. And until the issue of gay marriage came up, I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about how the latter isn't a 'real' marriage. Much in the way all dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs- this argument that marriages without religion aren't really marriages is kind of like saying animals that aren't dogs aren't really animals. <- That's the element that's surprising to me.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #165
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    It's a few things. We did have a religious ceremony, but I would consider us just as married and in the same way (with a religious element) had we had a civil wedding. Mostly I guess I just believe on some level that fate/God brought us together in the first place.

  6. #166
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I should add that I know many, many people for whom marriage is not at all religious, and I think there's room in the world for people to think of their own marriages however they choose, provided they treat each other well. I know "biblically submissive" wives who are happy and don't appear to be oppressed by their husbands, and while I can't imagine being in a relationship like that myself, it seems to work for them. I also know many non-religious people in non-religious marriages and that's not as foreign to me since the religious element in my own marriage is pretty subtle.

  7. #167
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I should add that I know many, many people for whom marriage is not at all religious, and I think there's room in the world for people to think of their own marriages however they choose, provided they treat each other well
    Nope. Sorry. Marriage is religious, and true freedom demands everyone recognize that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  8. #168
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    [eta:] For clarification, I should add- it's not surprising that *some* people consider it a religious rite of passage. This has always been clear to me. What's surprising to me is that some people might actually consider *all* marriage a religious rite of passage. I have always assumed "marriage" is the umbrella of "romantic relationship"- for some people, religion is strongly tied into it. For others, religion has nothing to do with it. And until the issue of gay marriage came up, I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about how it isn't a 'real' marriage. Much in the way all dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs- this argument that marriages without religion aren't really marriages is kind of like saying animals that aren't dogs aren't really animals. <- That's the element that's surprising to me.
    No, I'm pretty much with you here. Marriage is a romantic relationship made permanent (although everyone knows they're not all permanent- and I don't think that's a bad thing, personally- the ability to get away from a relationship that turns toxic or that you realize has always been toxic seems like a net good for everybody). People of faith probably incorporate their faith into their marriage, people for whom faith doesn't play a big role in their lives probably think of it more secularly. IMO everybody gets to decide that for themselves.

  9. #169
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    My spiritual beliefs tell me that marriage in a legal sense has nothing to do with the commitment of two spiritual beings.

    There's no difference in my view between straight or gay commitments. It's just one hearts devotion to another.

    But because I'm straight ( mostly) no one would think to debate me on rather or not that marriage I had for 13 years was valid.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #170
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Marriages in the West were originally contracts between the families of two partners, with the Church and the state staying out of it.

    In 1215, the Church decreed that partners had to post notices of an impending marriage. Still, until the 1500s, the Church accepted a couple's word that they had exchanged marriage vows, with no witnesses or corroborating evidence needed.

    So marriage wasn't religious until 1215, and still quite secular right up to the 1500s.

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