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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    @Magic Poriferan i mean two atheists can marry right? how is that different?
    It's not.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    As far as I can tell, USA was supposed to be "land of christianity that tolerates everyone else." Its original intent was to spread christianity, because that's what christians do. So obviously there is a bias toward people of christian faith.
    I don't know if it started specifically to "spread Christianity," it seemed more to get away from external influence (and we even engaged in bloodshed in order to protect our boundaries), but the nature of people who would leave the civilization of the time and the religious faith of said people does seem to have lingered. Christianity has also played a pivotal role in some of the large subcultures (such as the black slave population -- the situation was bad enough that only faith really let them endure, and that influence remains in that population even today).

    While we always did have an inflow of people looking for religious and political freedom as well as economic prosperity, we did have barriers up against non-western ideas (except as curiosities) until maybe the 60's. There was a lot of social upheaval, and then exploration of eastern-style faiths and philosophies, and the world started becoming more globalized. So those anchored in the way things were before felt very threatened by the shift in cultural thinking. The Internet only hastened things, because the West could no longer lock out various life philosophies and any information that was keeping us within a particular mindset. The younger generations are already more of a global mindset, not a traditional one. Anyway, now it's become an entrenched fight here, with those who are dug in viewing it as protecting their heritage.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #103
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    As far as I can tell, USA was supposed to be "land of christianity that tolerates everyone else." Its original intent was to spread christianity, because that's what christians do. So obviously there is a bias toward people of christian faith.

    At this point Christianity seems to be the Minority and its coming under attack.

    This is what happens to nice people. You help people out and give them a home and they walk all over you.

    *cracks knuckles*
    it's not tho. it's not under attack. it's saying please...go live your life your way while allowing others to do the same.

    they're saying our rights and beliefs are more important than yours.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    it's not tho. it's not under attack. it's saying please...go live your life your way while allowing others to do the same.

    they're saying our rights and beliefs are more important than yours.
    Right. Its because the country was founded on christian beliefs and we want it kept that way.

    There is incentive to be a christian in this country, thus spreading christianity.

    If people don't like it, its because they refuse to give in to the incentive.

    Its like getting angry because someone is saying, "Here, you guys can all live however you want. If you would like to recieve 1000 extra bucks a year, sign up for our christian newsletter."

    The only "pressure" being applied to other people is the imbalance that exists only in their minds. They refuse to give in. Thus, they don't get the tax benefits that legal "marriage" provide. Otherwise there'd be no damn reason to get legally married.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There was a thread a little while ago that asked what was in my opinion sort of a silly question about how people could claim to be tolerant if they did not tolerate people who did not tolerate gays. It seems to me that the discussion is moving in that direction and the points I made there would be applicable here.

    I'm not buying that it is some requirement of tolerating religious freedom that we deny homosexuals the ability to have marriage. As soon as respecting someone's choices means taking someone else's away, I start getting very skeptical about the choice arguments.

    And that takes us back to my main point here all along. I don't think DiscoBiscuit is being consistent. I think he's trying to have it both ways. On one hand, churches are depicted as groups just trying to maintain their own way of doing things without interference, but on the other hand their concerns are supposed to translate into a law that restricts the choices of everyone including all of those outside the church. A church can't really look like a vulnerable victim in that light.
    How am I arguing for a restriction of choices?

    Must I reiterate, that the only difference I request is the name. No ones choices are effected.

    The only way to come to the conclusion that I would like to restrict anyone's choice is if you are misconstruing my argument.

  6. #106
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    Its like getting upset and demanding that a mcdonalds down the street be demolished because it tempts you to buy burgers, which make you fat.

    Nothing is anyones' own fault these days.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't know if it started specifically to "spread Christianity," it seemed more to get away from external influence (and we even engaged in bloodshed in order to protect our boundaries), but the nature of people who would leave the civilization of the time and the religious faith of said people does seem to have lingered. Christianity has also played a pivotal role in some of the large subcultures (such as the black slave population -- the situation was bad enough that only faith really let them endure, and that influence remains in that population even today).

    While we always did have an inflow of people looking for religious and political freedom as well as economic prosperity, we did have barriers up against non-western ideas (except as curiosities) until maybe the 60's. There was a lot of social upheaval, and then exploration of eastern-style faiths and philosophies, and the world started becoming more globalized. So those anchored in the way things were before felt very threatened by the shift in cultural thinking. The Internet only hastened things, because the West could no longer lock out various life philosophies and any information that was keeping us within a particular mindset. The younger generations are already more of a global mindset, not a traditional one. Anyway, now it's become an entrenched fight here, with those who are dug in viewing it as protecting their heritage.
    Besides what you mention here, I think the lack of a state-sponsored church is one of the reasons the US has so many strongly religious people. Without any state-sponsored church, churches in the US have been free to compete with each other for followers. The churches with the most compelling messages thrived, while the others failed. There was no similar pressure on European state-sponsored churches. This has actually led to an increase in religious fervor in the US, despite the increase in the number of non-believers.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #108
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How am I arguing for a restriction of choices?

    Must I reiterate, that the only difference I request is the name. No ones choices are effected.

    The only way to come to the conclusion that I would like to restrict anyone's choice is if you are misconstruing my argument.
    So you're advocating a government that regulates vocabulary.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    with those who are dug in viewing it as protecting their heritage.
    They don't view it that way....

    That's what it is. Everyone has a right to their own heritage.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    please...go live your life your way while allowing others to do the same.
    Dig on that, my dear.

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