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  1. #91
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not religion, unless evidence based psychology and sociology are religions.

    There's the evidence of history too, you know, why has homosexual parenting never registered as popular in the spontaneous order and become traditional?

    Homosexuality does not seem to do well as a norm for families, parenting, even individuals, apart from a small, small percentage of the population when you consider the hard facts, statistics and objective evidence of the long term and, in fact, I think the vitriolic, hostile associations of any neutral, I'm not even saying critical anymore but simply neutral, appraisal or appreciation of the facts as uncivilised, bigotted etc. is pretty telling too.

    If we consider the evidence of history its possible to be compassionate and humane without approving and advocating homosexuality to impressionable children, given the statistics that is only going to result in much more confusion and depression, at an earlier age, of children who feel no homosexual preferences.

    Since, I presume, you are not a fan of the confusion or suffering which the homosexual minority experience, purely by virtue of being a minority, and I dont believe that is anyones fault here, I'm not apportioning blame unlike some homosexuals or queer theorists. So why would you want that be generalised to the rest of the population? Seems kind of a strange form of egalitarianism which wants everyone to be equally injured and confused.


    once upon a time it was the norm to club someone over the head and drag them off to your cave.

    once upon a time it was thought that a woman was incapable of feeling sexual pleasure and she was simply there to please a man.

    once upon a time daughters were sold to the highest bidder.

    once upon a time black people were thought to have no soul and were bought and sold like goods.

    you will get nowhere with me by preaching about history. our history is one we should all feel embarrassed and disgusted by.

    it was once assumed that women and people of color were not created equal and i imagine their life was wrought with depression and suffering as well.

    was it there fault simply because they were not born a white man? or maybe was it the fault of the closed minded mob mentality of ignorant men?

    they will not suffer if the ignorance and hate stops.

    and yes anything that continues to promote it is just as uncivilized as the neanderthals above.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #92
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why not the example of the gay couple in the UK who fostered three or four boys but systematically abused them all in their adolescence?
    Were they Catholic priests?

  3. #93
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Churches gave up any claim to define marriage when they had it enshrined as law. At that moment, they gave that power to the state and the church will never get it back. Christians have no one but themselves to blame for what appears to be a breach of separation of church and state. They're the ones who breached it. Deal with it.
    This is pretty much what I was getting at.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #94
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    There was a thread a little while ago that asked what was in my opinion sort of a silly question about how people could claim to be tolerant if they did not tolerate people who did not tolerate gays. It seems to me that the discussion is moving in that direction and the points I made there would be applicable here.

    I'm not buying that it is some requirement of tolerating religious freedom that we deny homosexuals the ability to have marriage. As soon as respecting someone's choices means taking someone else's away, I start getting very skeptical about the choice arguments.

    And that takes us back to my main point here all along. I don't think DiscoBiscuit is being consistent. I think he's trying to have it both ways. On one hand, churches are depicted as groups just trying to maintain their own way of doing things without interference, but on the other hand their concerns are supposed to translate into a law that restricts the choices of everyone including all of those outside the church. A church can't really look like a vulnerable victim in that light.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #95
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    @Magic Poriferan well said.

    no one is trying to deny the religious folk the right for their marriage to be recognized or blessed by the church.

    we simply want legal marriage to be open to people regardless of gender. i mean two atheists can marry right? how is that different?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #96
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Churches gave up any claim to define marriage when they had it enshrined as law. At that moment, they gave that power to the state and the church will never get it back. Christians have no one but themselves to blame for what appears to be a breach of separation of church and state. They're the ones who breached it. Deal with it.
    This is a really good point that opponents can’t seem to grasp. The current system was built on one where civil precepts were dependent on prevailing religious precepts- and ‘marriage’ has taken on a meaning of its own, apart from the church. It’s not something the church has any exclusive claim to anymore.

    This argument that the term ‘marriage’ should be reserved as a union according to religion might hold some merit if there were a history of people raising a stink over Atheists (or any other denomination) wanting to co-opt the term. Then this ‘firm belief’ that ‘marriage’ is about a religious union might have some credibility. But I’ve never personally heard a single person go on an angry rant about how Atheists have no right to use the term ‘marriage’, nor heard of any movement in the past several hundred years to enact such a restriction (so if there was one, it was of so little incident that I’ve never even heard of it). It’s been widely acceptable for heterosexual Atheists to refer to themselves as ‘married’ for a long time now- and that’s sort of proof, in itself, that the church relinquished exclusive claim to the term ‘marriage’ a long time ago.
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  7. #97
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    Why does the USA cling to its christian roots?

  8. #98
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Why does the USA cling to its christian roots?
    I blame the Quakers, those squirrelly bastards.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #99
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    As far as I can tell, USA was supposed to be "land of christianity that tolerates everyone else." Its original intent was to spread christianity, because that's what christians do. So obviously there is a bias toward people of christian faith.

    At this point Christianity seems to be the Minority and its coming under attack.

    This is what happens to nice people. You help people out and give them a home and they walk all over you.

    *cracks knuckles*

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    As far as I can tell, USA was supposed to be "land of christianity that tolerates everyone else."

    At this point Christianity seems to be the Minority.
    The word you're looking for is plurality.

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