User Tag List

First 67891018 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 246

  1. #71
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "ObamaCare Medicaid Expansion is one of the biggest milestones in the health care bill. ObamaCare's Medicaid expansion expands Medicaid to our nations poorest in order cover nearly half of uninsured Americans. The law previously required states to cover their poorest or lose federal funding to Medicaid (federal funding covers 90-100% of the costs) until the supreme court ruling on ObamaCare."

    Yet another financial stranglehold, this time on the states. OBEY - OR ELSE!!!!!!!!!!

    Disgusting.
    Of course, it is disgusting, my friend. After all, the government is full of kleptocrats who are determined to run the country into the ground. The government does nothing but control and exploit its citizens, who are they to have a say about whether or not all citizens should be provided with health-care coverage.

    Let's not forget, the market is a magical institution, so let it work its magic! Just have the government stay out of the way and everything will be just fine because that's how wonderful the markets are! Say what? There is a problem with the fact that over 60% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills and 75% of these bankrupted individuals had insurance? Not to worry, these bankruptcies did not happen to "people", it is obviously their own fault and no-one has any responsibility to help them. Now, I tell you, corporations are people, the middle-class citizens going bankrupt are not! To be free means to be free in the market-place, that's all it means, why on earth would any responsible, God-fearing American ever contemplate of having the freedom to provide medical care for his ailing grandparents without draining his life's savings. Absolute non-sense, it is, I tell you!

    My friend, I cannot help but commend you for your astute observations. It is a crazy world out there and we need a strong authority figure to put its foot down to put an end to all of this anarchist talk about the problems of our health-care system! That is down-right anti-corporate and if it is anti-corporate, it is communist and if it is communist, it is un-American! The government is full of crooks, so what better authority could we have than the transnational corporations that realize windfall profits through the health-care system. Let me just recite Winston Churchill's piece of wisdom for you, the American corporate ideology is the worst system in the world except for all the others! Don't you dare move to Switzerland and you better bow to the corporations or the next thing you know is you'll wake up in a communist state! You better let the corporations do as they please and don't you forget what your uncle Ronnie used to say about health-care reform schemes such as Obamacare "it must be stopped by all means or one day we will be telling our children and grandchild about the old days when men used to be free!".
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #72
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    But you haven't given me an example of someone who was refused help on the basis of a can't or won't. I gave you an example of charity, and I could give you another one (but it wouldn't be possible to prove based on an online article).

    And I myself had an ER visit that was written off the hospital books.
    You're unlikely to find one. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) prevents a hospital from refusing care to anyone based on their citizenship or ability to pay to bill. There are of course, a few hospitals exempt, and loopholes, but the act applies (if I recall correctly) to about 98% of all hospitals in the US.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #73
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    But you haven't given me an example of someone who was refused help on the basis of a can't or won't. I gave you an example of charity, and I could give you another one (but it wouldn't be possible to prove based on an online article).
    I assure you that if too many people are asking for public money, there won't be enough money to go around. I'm also not sure why you think that the negative cases (where someone suffers because they have no money or not enough money in the case of special needs) mustn't exist because you happen to know of a case where the community collected $80K... and now you apparently have discounted a Google search as a plausible sign of proof.

    In any case, preexisting conditions suck (I have a kid with one of them), and not everyone immediately even considers trying to get money from the people around them.

    And I myself had an ER visit that was written off the hospital books.
    Where exactly do you think that money comes from? Costs get raised elsewhere to cover it.

    You didn't really answer my comment, you just stated that because you know of one case where the community has actually raised money, the other cases of people not having money mustn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You're unlikely to find one. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) prevents a hospital from refusing care to anyone based on their citizenship or ability to pay to bill. There are of course, a few hospitals exempt, and loopholes, but the act applies (if I recall correctly) to about 98% of all hospitals in the US.
    If it wasn't clear, I was talking about communities (not hospitals) choosing to raise money to help people with certain kinds of treatments. And of course the hospitals will cover people who walk in and need help regardless... but again, they will pass that cost back off to someone or they'll go under.

    It's all a shell game.

    EMTALA applies to hospitals operating under Medicare and applies to emergency medical conditions:

    The essential provisions of the statute are as follows:

    Any patient who "comes to the emergency department" requesting "examination or treatment for a medical condition" must be provided with "an appropriate medical screening examination" to determine if he is suffering from an "emergency medical condition". If he is, then the hospital is obligated to either provide him with treatment until he is stable or to transfer him to another hospital in conformance with the statute's directives.

    What constitutes "coming to the emergency department"? See our special note on the 250 yard rule and its discussion of presentations to locations other than the emergency room, as well as the further discussion below.

    If the patient does not have an "emergency medical condition", the statute imposes no further obligation on the hospital.
    http://www.emtala.com/faq.html
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #74

    Default

    I used to think that assistance for those in need should be a personal choice instead of a tax. It seems the "fairest". But then I came to think that it's an overly theoretical position to take. Things don't always work the way they should, or you wouldn't feel the need to check for oncoming cars before crossing the street when you have the right of way. Besides, we all receive government benefits that our neighbors helped to pay for. Unless you don't want to go to school, drive on roads, play in the park, have your garbage collected, enjoy military protection, or even buy produce at an affordable price, you're in this with the rest of us.

    Obamacare is an unsatisfying step in the right direction, but it's a step. Its full utility is limited by the political compromises that need to be made for those elected representatives whose constituency is the insurance industry. I have about as much sympathy for the legalized racketeering that is the health insurance industry as I do for oil companies. I'm not too concerned that some people might have to downgrade from a Bentley to a Mercedes because they're not allowed to commit fraud anymore.

    Aside from concerns of fraud, I think of health care like vaccinations. The utility of the whole system is compromised if people refuse to participate. As Jennifer alluded to, the care for uninsured and indigent people isn't a free lunch. It's recycled back to the rest of us in hidden ways. Private insurance is available in other countries with national healthcare and it would be here too, if you just can't stand to go to the same doctors as the riff-raff. It's also less expensive than all of us pay now.

    I work full time but am not provided healthcare by my employer. I can't afford private coverage. I can afford doctor visits when I am sick, but I effectively can't go anyway, because if a pre-existing condition is discovered I will be prevented from having that condition covered when I do get insurance. So since my last physical in 1998, I've had to cross my fingers and hope I'm as healthy as I feel. That doesn't happen in the rest of the developed world and it shouldn't happen here, but the tenets of American exceptionalism require that it must. And that's a shame.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  5. #75
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Of course, it is disgusting, my friend. After all, the government is full of kleptocrats who are determined to run the country into the ground. The government does nothing but control and exploit its citizens, who are they to have a say about whether or not all citizens should be provided with health-care coverage.

    Let's not forget, the market is a magical institution, so let it work its magic! Just have the government stay out of the way and everything will be just fine because that's how wonderful the markets are! Say what? There is a problem with the fact that over 60% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills and 75% of these bankrupted individuals had insurance? Not to worry, these bankruptcies did not happen to "people", it is obviously their own fault and no-one has any responsibility to help them. Now, I tell you, corporations are people, the middle-class citizens going bankrupt are not! To be free means to be free in the market-place, that's all it means, why on earth would any responsible, God-fearing American ever contemplate of having the freedom to provide medical care for his ailing grandparents without draining his life's savings. Absolute non-sense, it is, I tell you!

    My friend, I cannot help but commend you for your astute observations. It is a crazy world out there and we need a strong authority figure to put its foot down to put an end to all of this anarchist talk about the problems of our health-care system! That is down-right anti-corporate and if it is anti-corporate, it is communist and if it is communist, it is un-American! The government is full of crooks, so what better authority could we have than the transnational corporations that realize windfall profits through the health-care system. Let me just recite Winston Churchill's piece of wisdom for you, the American corporate ideology is the worst system in the world except for all the others! Don't you dare move to Switzerland and you better bow to the corporations or the next thing you know is you'll wake up in a communist state! You better let the corporations do as they please and don't you forget what your uncle Ronnie used to say about health-care reform schemes such as Obamacare "it must be stopped by all means or one day we will be telling our children and grandchild about the old days when men used to be free!".
    Sounds like a combination of straw-man argumentation and other things.

    I'm not saying the free market is perfect, automatic, or without flaws. And even in a pure laissez-faire society, there will be crooked businessmen. Furthermore, even the best businesspeople have to base their everyday business decisions on mere guesswork which sometimes (or often) turns out wrong.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #76
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I assure you that if too many people are asking for public money, there won't be enough money to go around. I'm also not sure why you think that the negative cases (where someone suffers because they have no money or not enough money in the case of special needs) mustn't exist because you happen to know of a case where the community collected $80K... and now you apparently have discounted a Google search as a plausible sign of proof.

    In any case, preexisting conditions suck (I have a kid with one of them), and not everyone immediately even considers trying to get money from the people around them.


    Where exactly do you think that money comes from? Costs get raised elsewhere to cover it.

    You didn't really answer my comment, you just stated that because you know of one case where the community has actually raised money, the other cases of people not having money mustn't exist.
    No, I only said that since I offered real examples I'm asking you for a real example. I never discounted Google, I said that Richard's particular case can't be Googled so I can't strictly prove it as I did with the cluster headache case. However, his angioplasty came to $20,000 and it was entirely covered by his church through fund-raisers and the like.

    Now, do you have an example of someone who wasn't helped by the community after asking for help? Because that was your hypothetical claim earlier. My real examples of people being helped aren't countermanded by your hypothetical what-if claim that people might not be helped.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #77
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You're unlikely to find one. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) prevents a hospital from refusing care to anyone based on their citizenship or ability to pay to bill. There are of course, a few hospitals exempt, and loopholes, but the act applies (if I recall correctly) to about 98% of all hospitals in the US.
    I CAN think of one case - just one - but it wasn't my job to come up with real counter-examples to my "ideal" concerning help from the community.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #78
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    @Mal+

    Hey I could pop across to say hello if that was the case. Not saying I would, just saying I could.
    You better!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #79
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default Obamacare: How much are you willing to shell out to feel good about yourselves?

    http://news.investors.com/politics/0...ting-plans.htm

    But not everyone will be eligible for these subsidies, which phase out entirely at 400% of the poverty rate. And even with them, costs will still go up for many. A young worker making $20,000 in Maryland, for example, would pay about $1,000 for the cheapest ObamaCare plan, after the subsidy. That's still $278 more than the least expensive plan offered in the state today.

    And higher rates pose a significant risk to ObamaCare's success. If not enough young people sign up, premium costs will spiral upward.

    That's been the experience in six states that have already imposed ObamaCare-style market reforms — known as "guaranteed issue" and "community rating." These rules prevent insurers from denying coverage or charging more to people who are sick. But they can easily backfire.

    Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/politics/0...#ixzz2b9grJkxd
    Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #80
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    And even in a pure laissez-faire society, .
    Why do you romanticize the free-market ideology, it is just one way of setting up a capitalist politico-economic infrastructure with its own distinctive advantages and disadvantages. Markets work out best for people who are capable of making significant economic contributions for society, but less so for the less capable. In short, a market-oriented infrastructure is the most likely to benefit members of the upper-middle socio-economic class and above, however, such a society would offer rather limited opportunities to the ordinary civilians and the under-privileged. Even our American society heavily relies on social welfare programs to provide for the needs of not only the indigent, but also members of the middle class. If it wasn't for the unemployment benefits, a computer programmer or an accountant would not have the luxury of taking up to six months to find a job in his field of specialization, he'd be pushing carts at Wal-Mart or sweeping the streets. In fact, that's exactly what happened in Bangladesh when the nation reached a 98.5% employment rate in part by cutting back social welfare benefits and implementing radical market-oriented reforms. According to the market-fundamentalist doctrine, they should have achieved enormous growth because economic competition must bring out the best in the work-force, but what they ended up with instead was a massive brain-waste where professionals enjoyed only scarce opportunities to remain employed in their field of specialization.

    Do me a favor and look into Jeffrey Sachs End of Poverty, Ha Joon Chang's 23 things they don't tell you about capitalism and Paul Collier's the Bottom billion and learn about all of the wonders that market-reforms are doing across the world. The tenets of market-fundamentalism have been applied in nearly every severely under-developed country and they have failed miserably and today's most developed economies such as the U.S, Australia and South Korea achieved growth by striking a proper balance between openness to trade and protection of their economies (see Chang's book).

    You want a "pure laissez-faire society"? Be careful what you wish for.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

Similar Threads

  1. Looks like we are going to Syria
    By The Great One in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: 09-19-2013, 10:31 AM
  2. We are trying to send too many people to college
    By DiscoBiscuit in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 09-16-2013, 04:33 PM
  3. Are we all dittoheads to some ideology?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-11-2009, 06:24 PM
  4. Can we know only what we are prepared to know?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 04-01-2009, 06:22 AM
  5. Why are we so attracted to misfortune?
    By Geoff in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 05-16-2008, 11:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO