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  1. #61
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Why does everything EEEEVILLL have to come from "right-wing extremists" and not just from people who think about these issues instead of following their FEEEELINGS? Why do you support a British system that only works "fairly well"? Why not support a system that works extremely well? And why not just look at the gubmint's track record when it comes to these programs, considering the fact that they are not only widely abused, they also become more and more expensive to maintain until they finally go bankrupt?
    Because in my experience, no system is perfect, so I'll settle for fairly well. Also, I don't live in England so I'm no expert. Where I'm live the majority of people I speak to are against affordable health care, while I am for it. Call me a bleeding heart feeler, but it makes no sense to disregard people in our own country. I have some right wing friends and we don't discuss this because we like each other and we want to keep it that way.

    So how are you guys planning on getting work permits in Switzerland? If you don't have older children, then your transition should be so easy.

    And anyway, wife's complaint has nothing to do with right-wing this or left-wing that. She did vote for Obama twice, after all. Based on her study of our state's plan, she's afraid that her pre-existing health conditions and lifestyle will make her ineligible for state-run health insurance.
    Like I said before, go for it. I'd seriously consider moving to Switzerland if the opportunity arose.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlily View Post
    Because in my experience, no system is perfect, so I'll settle for fairly well. Also, I don't live in England so I'm no expert. Where I'm live the majority of people I speak to are against affordable health care, while I am for it. Call me a bleeding heart feeler, but it makes no sense to disregard people in our own country. I have some right wing friends and we don't discuss this because we like each other and we want to keep it that way.

    So how are you guys planning on getting work permits in Switzerland? If you don't have older children, then your transition should be so easy.

    Like I said before, go for it. I'd seriously consider moving to Switzerland if the opportunity arose.
    What does politics have to do with it? Desiring a system that works better than "fairly" has nothing to do with politics. I believe that settling for a system that only works fairly well has everything to do with politics.

    The intellectual assumption is that taking care of strangers is moral. This is the unquestioned feeling-opinion behind socialist systems. But the "why" of it is never discussed, it is only felt.

    From my personal perspective, not my wife's or any politics, Obamacare is financially disadvantageous, even disastrous. My family's welfare IS more important than the family next door, in the long run, and so is everybody else's family, ON MORAL GROUNDS, and not according to feelings.

    That's not to say I would ALWAYS disregard the welfare of strangers. That's not the point. But as a general rule, "charity begins at home."

    If the hypothetical family next door or down the street can't afford a turkey on Thanksgiving, and they make this known, then I've seen where they end up with half a dozen turkeys based simply on the welfare, charity, and moral feelings of others, not gubmint coercion.

    You can't coerce people into feeling as strongly as you do about your neighbor's welfare. You will simply end up with a lot of people who feel victimized by YOUR feelings. The ends don't justify the means.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #63
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/64256147.html

    "Ryan Stockdale is now out of surgery.
    He is the Middleton father suffering from severe cluster headaches.
    Last week, the community rallied to raise more than $80,000 so Ryan could afford the experimental surgery at a San Francisco hospital.
    Doctors tell his wife Karia that he is doing exceptionally well.
    It's a risky surgery that doctors say has a 60 percent chance of curing Ryan."

    These cluster headaches, by the way, are 10 times more painful than giving birth, and they occurred 20 times a day.

    The community did indeed rally around and, from the goodness of their hearts, from their personal feelings about a fellow human being's pain, donated what they could so this surgery could happen.

    With Obamacare, on the other hand, there is nobody for the community to rally around, just a faceless mass of humans known as "the uninsured."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #64
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Anyway, the healthcare in Switzerland cannot be truly considered private. Yes, insurance companies are technically private, but they are pretty much forced to insure you at standard rates if you're an employee.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #65
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/64256147.html

    "Ryan Stockdale is now out of surgery.
    He is the Middleton father suffering from severe cluster headaches.
    Last week, the community rallied to raise more than $80,000 so Ryan could afford the experimental surgery at a San Francisco hospital.
    Doctors tell his wife Karia that he is doing exceptionally well.
    It's a risky surgery that doctors say has a 60 percent chance of curing Ryan."

    These cluster headaches, by the way, are 10 times more painful than giving birth, and they occurred 20 times a day.

    The community did indeed rally around and, from the goodness of their hearts, from their personal feelings about a fellow human being's pain, donated what they could so this surgery could happen.

    With Obamacare, on the other hand, there is nobody for the community to rally around, just a faceless mass of humans known as "the uninsured."
    I think that it's great that the community rallied around someone in need. That would be the optimal way to handle it, if possible.

    Just not sure how you expect it to be handled when the community either can't or won't chip in to help someone, and they end up declining or dying or just doing things that end up being a drain on the current system (since costs get filtered back around to the community anyway in form of higher premiums or whatever else).

    Idealism is great, but only actual, tangible actions actually resolve the problems.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    NOBAMA!

    jk

  7. #67
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    @Mal+

    Hey I could pop across to say hello if that was the case. Not saying I would, just saying I could.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #68
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    According to her, It's not "affordable" unless you're rich.

    She's right. We're in an income tax bracket where we are punished more than rewarded by these gubmint programs. So where will we have to cut back in order to pay for our neighbor's health care? Cable tv? Internet? One meal out a week?
    It is a well known fact that only rich people can move to Switzerland.

  9. #69
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Why does everything EEEEVILLL have to come from "right-wing extremists" and not just from people who think about these issues instead of following their FEEEELINGS?
    Have you done much research into this? I would say it seems you are controlled by your feeeeelings on the matter too.

    America has been in the enviable position to study the best and the worst of every universal health care system in existence and had the potential to model a system off of the very best the world had to offer. Unfortunately, due primarily to the very volatile nature of the political environment, America has had to all but abandon that very comprehensive and sensible research.

    Why ultimately though is 'Obamacare' useful? It seems at least a step in the direction of universal care - and that's just not my opinion it being the 'better' direction, it's believed to be the better direction by the citizens of nearly every major country in the world. The difficulty in America right now, imo, is that in order to get anything close to a integrative health care model, compromises to that 'ideal' model have had to be made, and massive ones. I will say that something seems at least better than nothing. It's about all that can be accomplished in such a contentious political environment.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  10. #70
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think that it's great that the community rallied around someone in need. That would be the optimal way to handle it, if possible.

    Just not sure how you expect it to be handled when the community either can't or won't chip in to help someone, and they end up declining or dying or just doing things that end up being a drain on the current system (since costs get filtered back around to the community anyway in form of higher premiums or whatever else).

    Idealism is great, but only actual, tangible actions actually resolve the problems.
    But you haven't given me an example of someone who was refused help on the basis of a can't or won't. I gave you an example of charity, and I could give you another one (but it wouldn't be possible to prove based on an online article).

    And I myself had an ER visit that was written off the hospital books.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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