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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I hear that all the time, not that anyone uses those exact words.
    Who says anything like that? Please, tell me who.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Who says anything like that? Please, tell me who.
    Scores of cantankerous hypocritical baby boomers.

    I also heard that all ice cream must be manufactured by elves for it to be labeled as such. In fact, the vast majority is shipped from the North Pole as a form of export during the off-season.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Scores of cantankerous hypocritical baby boomers.

    I also heard that all ice cream must be manufactured by elves for it to be labeled as such. In fact, the vast majority is shipped from the North Pole as a form of export during the off-season.
    That's right!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You might actually have to move to an undeveloped country to find someplace where they don't have some form of universal healthcare. Or that's the impression I've got of the rest of the developed world.
    This.

    I find it incomprehensible how effectively so many Americans are recruited to fight against what is clearly their own best interests. It really seems that they'd rather pay more for a healthcare system that could be yanked away at any point than have poor people given healthcare they can afford. It's like they'd rather live in a lawless, high-crime society protected only by overpriced, extortionate personal bodyguards who run at the first sign of trouble than give (less) money to fund an effective police force who would protect rich and poor alike. Why? Because it would also protect the poor.

    I just don't get it.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    This.

    I find it incomprehensible how effectively so many Americans are recruited to fight against what is clearly their own best interests. It really seems that they'd rather pay more for a healthcare system that could be yanked away at any point than have poor people given healthcare they can afford. It's like they'd rather live in a lawless, high-crime society protected only by overpriced, extortionate bodyguards who run at the first sign of trouble than give (less) money to fund an effective police force who would protect rich and poor alike. Why? Because it would also protect the poor.

    I just don't get it.
    Whenever someone says "clearly," it's because they haven't fully thought the issue through.

    For example, "Clearly there should be free abortion on demand."

    See what I mean?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #36
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I do overuse it.

  7. #37
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    And yet my religious conservative friend Richard takes a more literal interpretation of the NT by gladly paying his income taxes every year, because Jesus said so.

    He also prays on the edge of his bed every night with his forehead on his clenched hands.

    He is against gay marriage and he is against allowing gays into his church.

    He is also one of the nicest people I have ever met.

    He doesn't own any guns, he doesn't swear or drink (except a beer once in a while).

    Richard destroys all stereotypes of right-wing "extremists" by his very existence.

    I have often heard, however, that morality often includes taking care of your neighbor (as yourself).

    The moral question is, for me, a philosophical one. How does this tenet fit into the Categorical Imperative? If a true moral tenet, then is it absolutely or only relatively true?

    So I'll ask you: is universal health care absolutely moral or only relatively moral? If it is only relatively moral, where do you draw the line, and why?
    I don't believe you. I think you're sore about having to pay money you don't want to pay. You don't appear to be super informed on our and other healthcare systems. That's okay. Sometimes something catches a person off guard and they need to blow off some steam before they're ready to look into it seriously.

    Morality, for me, is mostly about treating others how I want to be treated and it's about compassion. I haven't studied philosophy. I hope that isn't completely necessary to morality. I'm going from the statistics I've seen, like that we have the most expensive and least effective healthcare system (in terms of lifespan and infant and maternal mortality) in the developed world. And that over 60% of all bankruptcies in this country are due to medical bills. 75% of those bankruptcies are people with medical insurance.

    IOW, as a country we're paying through the nose and we're getting crap for that money. According to the reports I've seen, my family's insurance will go up about $30/mo due to ACA (from $540 to $570/month for our portion of the premiums). If that is all we have to pay to help our neighbors get medical care, we've got no problem with that. I'd actually rather pay that in taxes and have the kind of coverage that won't bankrupt us if someone gets seriously ill or injured. Even if that means we've got to drop cable.

    I'm glad your friend is okay paying his taxes. He's likely not a Tea Party conservative like a lot of my family. Myself, I'm doctrinally Evangelical Christian, but not a political or fiscal conservative.

    As far as Obamacare goes, it is, in many ways, the worst of both worlds. We get more people covered and we get some protections that were not previously in place, but we still have all the for-profit and unregulated BS that contribute to our high prices in the first place. It's really pretty crappy, but it's virtually impossible to get anything done in this country until we've thrown an enormous and juicy bone to the corporations that own our public servants. IMO.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't believe you. I think you're sore about having to pay money you don't want to pay. You don't appear to be super informed on our and other healthcare systems. That's okay. Sometimes something catches a person off guard and they need to blow off some steam before they're ready to look into it seriously.

    Morality, for me, is mostly about treating others how I want to be treated and it's about compassion. I haven't studied philosophy. I hope that isn't completely necessary to morality. I'm going from the statistics I've seen, like that we have the most expensive and least effective healthcare system (in terms of lifespan and infant and maternal mortality) in the developed world. And that over 60% of all bankruptcies in this country are due to medical bills. 75% of those bankruptcies are people with medical insurance.

    IOW, as a country we're paying through the nose and we're getting crap for that money. According to the reports I've seen, my family's insurance will go up about $30/mo due to ACA (from $540 to $570/month for our portion of the premiums). If that is all we have to pay to help our neighbors get medical care, we've got no problem with that. I'd actually rather pay that in taxes and have the kind of coverage that won't bankrupt us if someone gets seriously ill or injured. Even if that means we've got to drop cable.

    I'm glad your friend is okay paying his taxes. He's likely not a Tea Party conservative like a lot of my family. Myself, I'm doctrinally Evangelical Christian, but not a political or fiscal conservative.

    As far as Obamacare goes, it is, in many ways, the worst of both worlds. We get more people covered and we get some protections that were not previously in place, but we still have all the for-profit and unregulated BS that contribute to our high prices in the first place. It's really pretty crappy, but it's virtually impossible to get anything done in this country until we've thrown an enormous and juicy bone to the corporations that own our public servants. IMO.
    But the medical system was a lot better when I was growing up. It wasn't so expensive relative to income, and what was minimum wage, $1.25 an hour? Employees had full medical, I have full medical minus 30% deductible.

    You've got to ask yourself why medical insurance is so expensive now, and why medical care is so expensive. Wasn't it just two years ago that an MRI cost $750? Now it costs $2500.

    What's changed? Corporate greed? But isn't that always the same?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #39
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I just want baby boomers to stop complaining about this, since they're going to bankrupt social security and medicare anyway. But THAT government program we musn't dare touch!
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  10. #40
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    But the medical system was a lot better when I was growing up. It wasn't so expensive relative to income, and what was minimum wage, $1.25 an hour? Employees had full medical, I have full medical minus 30% deductible.

    You've got to ask yourself why medical insurance is so expensive now, and why medical care is so expensive. Wasn't it just two years ago that an MRI cost $750? Now it costs $2500.

    What's changed? Corporate greed? But isn't that always the same?
    A lot of things have changed. During the Regan administration and since, there has been a lot of deregulation and union busting. There is virtually no regulation on the pricing of medical procedures. I couldn't tell you if it's because it was deregulated or it just hadn't occurred to people to try to make loads of money off of sick people up to that point. What I'm pretty sure about is that they regulate these things in most developed countries and that they negotiate with pharmaceutical companies for reasonable prices. We don't do a lot of that here, other than the VA as far as I know.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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